** BROADHEADS ** Science & Math

[ontarget7]

Well, then accept Doug's challenge on the shooting machine. Eliminate the major variable in the system (the human) and see if your hypothesis holds up...

Sure, you got arrows and broadheads to donate, I’m in.


I really don’t have to worry if it holds up, that’s the thing. I have been grouping them together for years with no issues. I’ll just keep doing things the way I do them and I’m completely content with that.

Those that feel it can’t be done, I’m perfectly fine with that as well. I’ve given plenty of info over the years for guys and gals to get the same results.





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[worx53]

@nexus - In my mind, you're overcomplicating it, and talking about some things not really related to the issue at hand. But, you definitely touch on the right points.

It's not this:



It IS this:



What we're talking about is this. Take two IDENTICAL arrows. Same everything, except on one arrow you use a 100gr field point, on the second arrow you screw off the field point and use a 100gr fixed blade broadhead. Then, you shoot them out of the same bow using a shooting machine.

I don't want to say drag from the vanes is irrelevant, it's just that it's the same between the two arrows, so irrelevant in talking about the difference in drop between those two arrows.

What is relevant is that the fixed blade broadhead will have higher drag coefficient, will slow the arrow faster, will have a lower average speed to target, and will drop more than the field point.

If you tune them to hit the same at close range, the broadhead will be low at long range. If you tune them to hit the same at long range (i.e. planing up), they'll be high at short / mid ranges.

The magnitude of how much difference you see and at what range would be due to a whole number of factors. Think about drag coefficient, drag in a laminar vs. turbulent flow (linear vs. exponential), momentum of the projectile, speed of the projectile, etc, etc.

And at the end of the day, the difference is going to be pretty damn small at short ranges to the point it doesn't matter for most people

 

[worx53]

There is still a discrepancy with this statement/ theory- I've seen several videos of guys testing broadhead impact vs. field points where the broadheads all impacted higher than the field points at 100 yds. I'm talking 4 different broadheads with the same arrow as the field point in a couple videos
So is it possible to have a "planing" or " lift" effect and yet to have more drag (slower speed )at that 100 yard distance but the "planning" or "lift" counteracts the drag which makes the arrows hit higher.
Or not?
Those videos and tests tell another story.

 

[RosinBag]

I do think it’s possible that the aerodynamics of a broadhead has an affect. I remember shooting two blade zwickeys long ago and if you ran the blades at 3 and 9 they did shoot pretty high.

My personal opinion and I am no engineer, is it can be done at all distances from zero to 100. I also have seen anyone do just that and I don’t mean a video of two arrows at 100 and that’s it. I would want to see multiple distances, with a machine or someone I know can shoot better than 99% of others.

Could a bow do it across all yardages with a dispersion that would suffice my expectations, potentially with the right combo, but I would want to put it in a machine to prove it to be true.

 

[307]

Sure, you got arrows and broadheads to donate, I’m in.


I really don’t have to worry if it holds up, that’s the thing. I have been grouping them together for years with no issues. I’ll just keep doing things the way I do them and I’m completely content with that.

Those that feel it can’t be done, I’m perfectly fine with that as well. I’ve given plenty of info over the years for guys and gals to get the same results.

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OK, but the person making the claim does inherit the burden of proof. You're claiming something that is theoretically impossible, thus, it's not unreasonable to expect objective evidence (to the limit of reasonably available technology) supporting the claim.

Whether or not it benefits you put your hypothesis/methods to the test is another story altogether.

 

[justin davis]

I practice with fieldpoints 90 percent of the time. But last night screwed on a broadhead to check. Here is a pic from 90 yards. 2 arrows Broadhead and field point. Although not truely the same point of impact...I call that same poi.

I usually don’t like to shoot to many arrows at once with broadheads on. It can get annoying/ pricey destroying vanes/arrows.

 

[doverpack12]

Doug what are you thoughts on the effects a shooting machine has on a bow/arrow/shooter combo that is tuned? I’ve always wondered how a shooting machine could be trusted as a representation how how well a bow is tuned or shooting Broadheads vs field points. I know for a fact my bow is tuned with consideration to my grip and form. It may not be perfect or correct but it is repeatable. A shooting machine simply cannot imitate a bow hand pressure, give/cushion, angle top to bottom or side to side. How well can a shooting machine aim at 80-100 yards? Can it consistently put the same arrow in the same hole shot after shot?

 

[ontarget7]

Just goes to show you, some have holes in their game that don’t make it all come together is the way I see it.

Then instead of figuring out those holes, it’s just chalked up like it can’t be done.

Maybe it would be a fun time to meet up for our own weekend trip of archery fun.

I’ll bring my setup and everyone else theirs and we can do some real time down range shooting to compare. We can then rack our brains as to why this all can be done. A little friendly competition and some first hand tuning insight why some, not just myself, know it can be achieved, with excellent results.

Obviously, it would have to be planned a head but I’m game.

Who’s in ?


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[307]

Doug what are you thoughts on the effects a shooting machine has on a bow/arrow/shooter combo that is tuned? I’ve always wondered how a shooting machine could be trusted as a representation how how well a bow is tuned or shooting Broadheads vs field points. I know for a fact my bow is tuned with consideration to my grip and form. It may not be perfect or correct but it is repeatable. A shooting machine simply cannot imitate a bow hand pressure, give/cushion, angle top to bottom or side to side. How well can a shooting machine aim at 80-100 yards? Can it consistently put the same arrow in the same hole shot after shot?

I'm thinking you'd have to tune the bow to the machine, as much as possible to achieve "perfect", and then test the broadhead flight theory without changing anything about the bow once "tuned".

 

[307]

...or you could just have a skilled aerospace engineer put it through a tunnel, make some measurements, and put the whole discussion to bed.

 

[RosinBag]

Just goes to show you, some have holes in their game that don’t make it all come together is the way I see it.

Then instead of figuring out those holes, it’s just chalked up like it can’t be done.

Maybe it would be a fun time to meet up for our own weekend trip of archery fun.

I’ll bring my setup and everyone else theirs and we can do some real time down range shooting to compare. We can then rack our brains as to why this all can be done. A little friendly competition and some first hand tuning insight why some, not just myself, know it can be achieved, with excellent results.

Obviously, it would have to be planned a head but I’m game.

Who’s in ?


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I am in, I have been retired for three days, so got nothing but time.

 

[RosinBag]

My experience with the Hooter Shooter is it will literally shoot an arrow in the same ragged home out to roughly 40ish. At 80 ish it will shoot super tight, 1.5” groups. It is not hard to aim, but whoever starts the aiming is the one to aim it through out the testing.

There is no doubt the tune is slightly different from a human, but only as it relates to torque.

I know a top level pro that tuned his bow in a HS for the most accurate tune he could get. When he shot it, his arrows flew terrible, but the point never moved and he was killing it in tournament. So with field points it is not all that critical for perfect arrow flight.

 

[ontarget7]

I am in, I have been retired for three days, so got nothing but time.

Nice

It would be a good time
Let’s see if we can make it happen.


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[Billy Goat]

Just goes to show you, some have holes in their game that don’t make it all come together is the way I see it.

Then instead of figuring out those holes, it’s just chalked up like it can’t be done.

Maybe it would be a fun time to meet up for our own weekend trip of archery fun.

I’ll bring my setup and everyone else theirs and we can do some real time down range shooting to compare. We can then rack our brains as to why this all can be done. A little friendly competition and some first hand tuning insight why some, not just myself, know it can be achieved, with excellent results.

Obviously, it would have to be planned a head but I’m game.

Who’s in ?


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I'd be in. I'm on the east coast tho. I enjoy reading what others are doing. If anyone on the east coast is wanting to play maybe we could set something up. Maybe with enough notice I could cash in some miles and make the trip somewhere next year.

I'm still hoping to have time to shoot a bunch of bh's through the crono at different ranges to get some more data points to expand this.

 

[RosinBag]

I think the winter in Utah comes much sooner than at my place. I may be able to make a road trip to visit a few places in Utah and friends back there on the way.

We may be able to meet somewhere as I can travel with my bow press and clamp it down if we need it.

Maybe a Rokslide Archery Rendezvous.

 

[ontarget7]

I think the winter in Utah comes much sooner than at my place. I may be able to make a road trip to visit a few places in Utah and friends back there on the way.

We may be able to meet somewhere as I can travel with my bow press and clamp it down if we need it.

Maybe a Rokslide Archery Rendezvous.

I’m down
It would be a blast


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[ontarget7]

Got some cool ranges we can hit
I have everything still setup at my place in the basement. I’ll cover food, whether a BBQ out to eat etc it don’t matter.

Would be cool to get a handful of guys together and meet up. Go through tuning techniques,
shooting portion, some good food and a few beers to cap things off.

If we planned it in advanced maybe on OTC elk hunt to top it off


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[5MilesBack]

Maybe it would be a fun time to meet up for our own weekend trip of archery fun. Who’s in ?

I've been saying this for a few years now. Justin and I talk about it from time to time. A good high altitude, long range TAC course would be a blast to meet up for. I prefer shooting 3D's to spots.

 

[RosinBag]

Sounds excellent. What time of year you think?

 

[Brendan]

There is still a discrepancy with this statement/ theory- I've seen several videos of guys testing broadhead impact vs. field points where the broadheads all impacted higher than the field points at 100 yds. I'm talking 4 different broadheads with the same arrow as the field point in a couple videos
So is it possible to have a "planing" or " lift" effect and yet to have more drag (slower speed )at that 100 yard distance but the "planning" or "lift" counteracts the drag which makes the arrows hit higher.
Or not?
Those videos and tests tell another story.

Yes, it's possible, but then they'd hit high at short/medium range. If you tune them dead on for short / medium, they'll be low the longer out you go.

We discussed this earlier, but some people tune this way to have them run a little high to start, and dead on at a longer range, then less drop as you go beyond that.