Broadhead Tuning Question

[ontarget7]

If what you're saying was true, then moving the opposite direction would throw the powerstroke off even more than where it started, which would make it much worse......not better. So how could making an adjustment that changes the powerstroke for the worse........bring BH's and FP's together? Because from my own experience, it has.

Yes, it’s true

Compensation in other areas is all one is accounting for. If the rest is not in line with said powerstroke you will not be true at all the given distances down range.




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[5MilesBack]

Yes, it’s true

Compensation in other areas is all one is accounting for. If the rest is not in line with said powerstroke you will not be true at all the given distances down range.

This is why I rely solely on my personal experience. Like I said previously, when I get perfect BH/FP bullseyes at 60 together consistently, they'll be together at all ranges.......except for what you mentioned at extreme distances on elevation. Changing the rest even further outside the powerstroke would not do that.

 

[doverpack12]

This crap really got me messed up Haha. I'm going to wait until I am home and have the help of my bowshop guy with me.

Today I started at 30. Saw the same high right deal(yesterday it was shooting good at 30).
Made a lot of adjustment to the rest to get the field point into the broadheads. Odd thing is the broadheads never seemed to move, just the field point impacts. Anyway finally got them looking good at 30 then checked 40 and all good. Go to 50 and back to high right.

Said **** it and set everything back to how I started, field points zeroed again. I'm starting to think it's me partially but at the same time it's hard to believe since every time its broadheads high right, field points centered.

Maybe I'm just not seeing something that a more experienced set of eyes will pick up on.

If i get a chance to hunt some hogs before then I'll just throw a deadmeat at them. That BMP tip flies right with my field points.

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Your draw length may be too long which is putting your release arm at an angle with elbow behind your head/neck and pulling down slightly. Could be grip also varying a little.

 

[ontarget7]

This is why I rely solely on my personal experience. Like I said previously, when I get perfect BH/FP bullseyes at 60 together consistently, they'll be together at all ranges.......except for what you mentioned at extreme distances on elevation. Changing the rest even further outside the powerstroke would not do that.

So your telling us to fix a tail right condition your going to recommend to anyone that asks, you would move your rest to the right, or shim cams to the left, or add a twist to the left yoke ?



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[5MilesBack]

So your telling us to fix a tail right condition your going to recommend to anyone that asks, you would move your rest to the right, or shim cams to the left, or add a twist to the left yoke ?

Not at all.........I'm saying if one way doesn't work, try the other. Because in the past......on some bows, that has worked. I've never shimmed cams because I've never needed to, all the dual cam bows I've had without yokes have always BH tuned using the rest.......and in some cases, opposite of what you're saying.

It just makes sense to me that if one adjustment direction doesn't work, then try the other. If that direction works and the bow shoots well at all distances, then problem solved. At that point, I'll let the naysayers argue about why that is happening. I care less about the why's, and worry more about the actual's as long as the bow shoots well.

That's why we constantly see these threads........."I did what the charts and experts told me to do and that didn't work, what do I do now?" Then they come back later and say "Well, I moved the rest the opposite way and that worked". OK. At that point we can argue about how that's not supposed to work, or we can go out and shoot.

 

[5MilesBack]

I'll ask this question.......let's say your bow has a perfectly aligned powerstroke right down the middle of the shelf. You move your rest to the right so that the point is now pointing right, which will have BH's impacting right and a left tear. Are you going to move the rest further right to correct that.........or move the rest to the left to get the point back behind the powerstroke?

 

[MattB]

In tuning there is not some bows that tune better with the rest moved one direction and other bows will be the opposite.

When looking at rest adjustments think about the path of the powerstroke. The tip weight will always want to get behind or in front of that path. So when your bareshaft or broadhead is hitting right it’s telling you your rest is left of the path of the powerstroke and why you would need to adjust it right.

Opposite will hold true for a tail right condition.

This does not change from bow to bow


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Help me with this, because as I am reading this it is contrary to virtually everything I've experienced in 20 years of BH tuning. Assume you start out with a perfectly tuned RH bow, and you move you rest 1/8" right/towards the riser. The point will be to the right of the path of the power stroke, so you would get a tail left tear on paper. What I am reading is you are suggesting you would need to move the rest MORE to the right to clean up the tail left tear.

Edit: posted this and read down farther and saw that 5MB and I posted almost exactly the same thing.

Thinking about this a slightly different way, are you saying that under the detuning scenario above where the rest is moved toward the riser, that you would expect a tail RIGHT tear because of the notion of the tip weight wanted to get in front of the arrow?

 

[Brendan]

I'll ask this question.......let's say your bow has a perfectly aligned powerstroke right down the middle of the shelf. You move your rest to the right so that the point is now pointing right, which will have BH's impacting right and a left tear. Are you going to move the rest further right to correct that.........or move the rest to the left to get the point back behind the powerstroke?

This isn't what happens. I proved it here on Rokslide in a thread you were involved in:

https://www.rokslide.com/forums/thr...ds-can-they-be-tuned.75135/page-3#post-758432

 

[Brendan]

My results from today....

2016 Hoyt Carbon Defiant Turbo. 73lb 505 Gr Easton Axis 300 with 125 grain points and 50 grain brass inserts. All testing was done at 30 yards, although I did confirm broadhead shots at 40 and 50 a couple times (no pictures of those groups).

I was in a little bit of a rush, and it was hot as hell and humid, so some shots (especially bare shafts) probably could've been better. Also - this is my backup bow and is "Good Enough", but the tune probably isn't perfect at longer distance yet....


The Bow:

Rest Starting Point:

Starting Group with Fixed Blade, Bare Shaft, and Field Point:

Moved the rest to the right:

Resulting Group with Fixed Blade and Bare Shaft well to the left of the Field Point (Aiming at the Orange Pin, I did NOT re-adjust my sight...)

 

[OR Archer]

Help me with this, because as I am reading this it is contrary to virtually everything I've experienced in 20 years of BH tuning. Assume you start out with a perfectly tuned RH bow, and you move you rest 1/8" right/towards the riser. The point will be to the right of the path of the power stroke, so you would get a tail left tear on paper. What I am reading is you are suggesting you would need to move the rest MORE to the right to clean up the tail left tear.

Edit: posted this and read down farther and saw that 5MB and I posted almost exactly the same thing.

Thinking about this a slightly different way, are you saying that under the detuning scenario above where the rest is moved toward the riser, that you would expect a tail RIGHT tear because of the notion of the tip weight wanted to get in front of the arrow?

What you're over looking is the fact that the point and the nock end are not following a straight line. I'll see if I can explain it in easy to understand terms. The rest is giving the nock end a direction of travel. So if you are left/right of center the nock end will kick in that direction. That's why if there is a nock left tear you move the rest right to move back into the center of the power stroke of the string. This is why if you have a left tear you would see a broadhead impact right of field points. Make sense?

 

[madkaw284]

I'll ask this question.......let's say your bow has a perfectly aligned powerstroke right down the middle of the shelf. You move your rest to the right so that the point is now pointing right, which will have BH's impacting right and a left tear. Are you going to move the rest further right to correct that.........or move the rest to the left to get the point back behind the powerstroke?

Well, what you just described is going to be opposite of what you said.
If your bow is tuned as you said and you bump the rest to the right so the point is now pointing to the right.
You now have a nock right condition, your broadhead will impact to the left of your fletched, your bareshafts will impact to the left of your fletched.
So to correct that you will move your rest to the left or shin cams to the right or twist right side yokes.


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[madkaw284]

Help me with this, because as I am reading this it is contrary to virtually everything I've experienced in 20 years of BH tuning. Assume you start out with a perfectly tuned RH bow, and you move you rest 1/8" right/towards the riser. The point will be to the right of the path of the power stroke, so you would get a tail left tear on paper. What I am reading is you are suggesting you would need to move the rest MORE to the right to clean up the tail left tear.

Edit: posted this and read down farther and saw that 5MB and I posted almost exactly the same thing.

Thinking about this a slightly different way, are you saying that under the detuning scenario above where the rest is moved toward the riser, that you would expect a tail RIGHT tear because of the notion of the tip weight wanted to get in front of the arrow?

I know it’s confusing, everything about tuning a bow seems counterintuitive.
So let’s say your bow is tuned to perfection and you bump your rest to the right (right hand archer) You will now have a nock right condition, even though you point is pointing to the right.

I’ll attempt to explain this with a cheesy analogy.
Let’s say you have a 10’ piece of 1” pvc pipe and a bowling ball. It’s pretty flimsy stuff if you hold it from one end. While holding that pice of pipe from one end, try pushing the bowling ball on a smooth concrete surface with the other end, the pipe will buckle in the middle even though the front is still in lone with the rear from where’re you are pushing. Now if you had an imaginary arrow rest somewhere in the middle, what is basically happening is the rest is guiding the shaft to the right and once the the nock breaks loose from the string the tail is going to whip to the right while the point is pulling the shaft forward. So, if this was a bareshaft there is nothing on the rear to take control so it’s going to fly just like that all the way down range.
If you put fletchings on that shaft, once released the fletchings will takeover and try to pull the point online with the rear and now maintain that path down range. That’s why fletched shafts will impact right of bareshafts with a nock right condition.
Last one, now you have a fixed blade on the front of that shaft, fixed blades are basically fletchings for the front of your shaft. Same situation, arrow leaves the string, point is pulling forward, tail whips to the right and now you have the broadhead on the front pointing left and the nock to the right, the broadhead is going to act like fletchings and pull that shaft to the left all the way down range hitting left of you field points.

WHEW!
Hopefully this will help you out a bit.


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[5MilesBack]

What you're over looking is the fact that the point and the nock end are not following a straight line. I'll see if I can explain it in easy to understand terms. The rest is giving the nock end a direction of travel. So if you are left/right of center the nock end will kick in that direction. That's why if there is a nock left tear you move the rest right to move back into the center of the power stroke of the string. This is why if you have a left tear you would see a broadhead impact right of field points. Make sense?

Isn't the powerstroke giving the nock end a direction of travel? Think in an extreme example of what I posted above. Let's say the point of the arrow is turned 10 degrees to the right (let's assume a LH bow so that would be possible. Now the nock end is still on the string where it would be regardless of where the point is aiming. With the powerstroke pushing that nock end perfectly straight down the centerline, and the point pointing way right.........how on earth would you get a right nock tear? The point is going to stay right while the nock end is getting pushed by the powerstroke. How can the arrow suddenly change course so that the point end flips to the other side?

Put a broom handle on the table and put the tip 10 degrees right of a line and then push on the back end of the handle straight along that line. What happens?

 

[OR Archer]

Put a broom handle on the table and put the tip 10 degrees right of a line and then push on the back end of the handle straight along that line. What happens?

Sorry but that's a terrible analogy.

Ill try and explain it again. The powerstroke is just driving the arrow. The rest determines the direction of the arrow. So if the rest is off center left or right the nock end is going to following the direction of the rest resulting in a left or right tear accordingly.

 

[madkaw284]

Isn't the powerstroke giving the nock end a direction of travel? Think in an extreme example of what I posted above. Let's say the point of the arrow is turned 10 degrees to the right (let's assume a LH bow so that would be possible. Now the nock end is still on the string where it would be regardless of where the point is aiming. With the powerstroke pushing that nock end perfectly straight down the centerline, and the point pointing way right.........how on earth would you get a right nock tear? The point is going to stay right while the nock end is getting pushed by the powerstroke. How can the arrow suddenly change course so that the point end flips to the other side?

Put a broom handle on the table and put the tip 10 degrees right of a line and then push on the back end of the handle straight along that line. What happens?

Read through my last post #52 and hopefully it will make more sense.


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[ontarget7]

Once you understand the why’s it’s easy to put all the pieces together. From that point, you will find that the different tuning methods don’t really contradict themselves at all. Once you have clean bareshaft flight with no tail end deviations you can check all other tuning methods and find zero adjustments needed.

The biggest variable that most encounter or get hung up on is grip. When you throw this into play and you have some that are set in their ways and not wanting to make slight changes to get the most out of arrow flight, you then find yourself scratching your head why the different tuning methods don’t hold true from one to another.

Then you resort to making adjustments that might not be the best for clean nock travel, but you end up settling for good enough.


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[5MilesBack]

Ill try and explain it again. The powerstroke is just driving the arrow. The rest determines the direction of the arrow. So if the rest is off center left or right the nock end is going to following the direction of the rest resulting in a left or right tear accordingly.

Correct. And in my example the powerstroke is pushing perfectly straight while the arrow is pointed right. So if the nock end is going to follow the direction of the rest.......that means as the powerstroke continues to push straight, the nock ends follows the arrow right........resulting in a left tear.

Unless you're saying that somehow the rest counteracts that movement and reverses it. In which case, every type of rest could impart a different twist to the equation. Like a Hostage rest.......it sometimes gives an opposite indication because the neck end is bouncing off the bottom brush showing a tail high.

 

[madkaw284]

Correct. And in my example the powerstroke is pushing perfectly straight while the arrow is pointed right. So if the nock end is going to follow the direction of the rest.......that means as the powerstroke continues to push straight, the nock ends follows the arrow right........resulting in a left tear.

Unless you're saying that somehow the rest counteracts that movement and reverses it. In which case, every type of rest could impart a different twist to the equation. Like a Hostage rest.......it sometimes gives an opposite indication because the neck end is bouncing off the bottom brush showing a tail high indication.

Incorrect
I know it seems like if your rest is to far right that you should get a nock left tear, but that’s just not the case. That would result in a nock right tear. Again, read post 52 and try to draw a conclusion from that.


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[Brendan]

5MB, I want to make sure you see these so you know we're not just feeding you a line. Seriously, take a look at some of these. And think about some of their backgrounds before chalking it up to arguing on the internet...

Tim Gillingham knows what he's talking about better than we do...

Note that he says rest movements don't always work. He does not say though that moving the rest the other direction works. He says there are a variety of factors (mostly form related) that can impact tuning.

Lancaster Archery
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/blog/paper-tuning-101/

If you’re scratching your head over the fixes to the rest for point-right and point-left tears, know that many archers struggle with solving horizontal tears, because the corrective action is counterintuitive.

Logic would seem to dictate that if the paper tear shows the nock is left of the point – commonly called a nock-left tear – then you should move the rest left, to push the point left. But that’s not the case.

What happens is, the arrow wants to fly in the direction of the string’s travel. So if your rest is too far to the left, the point will kick to the right as it leaves the rest to follow the string path, and your paper hole will show a nock-left tear. Move the rest right to solve the problem.

John Dudley - Paper Tuning

Right Tear - Rest Left (1:35)
He says when that doesn't work - improper release, improper facial pressure, improper grip, etc.

From this thread: Ontarget7 is a former semi-professional tuner. My guess is hundreds if not more bows tuned? OR Archer - works for a very well known bow shop I think?

Me - a nobody. But I did test it, took pictures, and proved it in a link above. (Seriously - go back and check the link)

So anyways - why not just do a detailed test like I did, take a bow out of tune, take pictures at every step, and post your results? Took me 20 minutes at the range when I did it, and the photos of the adjustments and results are all there.

 

[Brendan]

Some other notes

Moving the rest left doesn't always work that well because of "pervasive nock travel of the bow" - From Gillingham. (Nock travel primarily left to right on a right handed bow I think, reverse for a lefty)

Some of these adjustments might be backwards for a Lefty (which is what 5MilesBack is?), might not - That's one thing I can't test

Think about what you're trying to do. If you get a tear, you know the powerstroke and rest are out of line. You've got two options - move the rest or move the powerstroke. If the powerstroke is to the left of the rest - move the powerstroke right (Cams right, Increase tension on cable guard, tighten right yoke, loosen left yoke), or rest left.

Skinny arrows react faster than thick arrows. Light points react faster to adjustments than heavy points. - Gillingham.