Bring back made in USA..

[cuerro viejo]

^This^

Especially considering my first Factory Manufacturing Job was Feeding Code to a CNC Lathe/Mill and making sure the Machine did not jam, Later I was able to code all my projects and Observe it remotely and now I am almost certain the same Job is Automated now, Internet/Intranet Technologies is the wave of the future for many industries I am afraid

I’m in IT consulting/out/in/on shoring etc. I have guys supporting mfg’s. They spend most their time unlocking access into automated machines. Those machines as automated as they are still require a human presence, and then another human as the support guy to support the present human... Lol

 

[CoStick]

Prior to COVID, the opioid epidemic really took out the blue collar work force.

 

[gbflyer]

There are some incredibly knowledgeable folks on this site. Thanks for sharing.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Entitlement programs have destroyed the incentive to work in this country. Welfare, Title 19, WIC, etc..., were intended to be short term safety nets to bridge the gap between jobs for folks having a hard time. However, generations have learned to take advanatage of the system and it has become endemic in families across the country. I live outside a town of 1,100 people. The nearest "big city" is 25 miles away and has a population just shy of 10,000. There are long lists of open jobs in the weekly shopper every week and not because there is a labor shortage.

While a little extreme, Costa Rica has a very interesting model. Their government is a "socialist" democracy, and workers all pay into a federal pension system, similar to social security. However, when one loses their job for whatever reason (except accident or disability) they have 30 days to regain employment or they forfeit ALL that they have paid into the pension plan. This is how they keep able bodied people in the workforce and off the welfare rolls.

 

[ETtikka]

Does the US not make useful products or do we just not produce them? The US has driven innovation around the world for the last 40 years. Just because we dont manufacture the actual product doesnt mean we dont make useful stuff.

We still make plenty of useful stuff that other countries want and need, but we are trending in the wrong direction was my point, all of the newly "created" jobs are hotels, restaurants, retail, etc, when we really need steel production, aerospace, energy, any manufacturing to decrease our foreign dependence

 

[mitchellbk]

Prior to COVID, the opioid epidemic really took out the blue collar work force.

This. Listened to a podcast with one of the founders of Under Armour and he brought this up specifically. They really tried to manufacture domestically, but the way he said it, they just couldn't find enough people to make the product.

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

Not necessarily true. The market has not factored in social safety nets, human nature, etc, yet. And it can’t because they are not market-dependent.

An example: when the Zionist movement occurred there was a guy named Aaron Aaronson. When Jews were moving back to Isreal, he was instrumental in understanding hydrology to be able to water the desert. Fast forward a bit and the need for labor came about to manage the new crops, etc. . Many Arabs came to work, but Aaronson found that once the workers made *just* enough to make a living, they stopped work and went home for the day/week. This did not fulfill the labor demands, and it frustrated the living shit out of the farmers. The result is that more Jews filed in the gaps, making the money and increasing their lifestyles and success. This bred jealousy and contemptment between them and Arabs demanded that Jews pay some of their wealth to the local Arab sheiks, etc.

The point here is that even when incentivized by money and a ”better” life, some people still do not rise to the occasion because of the extra effort to get at the money or other factors. When money is not the be-all end-all, waving more of it doesn’t do much. If a person values their free time over a new car, money means nothing. They have all they need. We are in a world now where people have been convinced they can have it all - just like all those people they follow on Instagram. It’s hyper reality, and it’s false.

When a business cannot find workers (like a local Argentinian restaurant willing to pay $18 an hour), simply cannot tempt people out of their slumber because to them a shitty car, split rent, their cell phone and a few beers on Friday is all they need, the problem is beyond the ‘market” to solve. There are many factors working at once here. Creating a large number of people who are liabilities via social hammocks has no positive ending.

And the drought in workers isn’t in big business. It’s smaller business that can’t offer stocks or ownership or huge benefits plans.

I am familiar with Aaronson and his legacy of promoting Arab-Jewish relations and joint work. He promoted the idea of hiring Arab labor in particular. I am unfamiliar with the story you're telling though. What I will say is that from a market perspective, assuming the story is true and not just a story, the employers did not effectively come to an agreement with the workers. When a laborer sells their labor, they sell an agreed-upon amount for an agreed-upon price. All this tells me is that the people in this parable didn't come to the same agreement. In fact given the traditional overlap between socialism (kibbutzim being the most well-known) and Jewish philosophy I suspect that Borochov and Gordon would have scratched their heads at this story as well.

I don't understand how you can look at someone who is living a fairly low-cost lifestyle and content with that and call them lazy. What you're saying is that they aren't obsessing over material goods enough. What I hear is that there's nothing being offered that is worth more of their labor. I've looked at what SSDI and other welfare programs pay out, and pardon my French but ******* hell if someone is living it up on that money then more power to them. We could all learn a lesson about contentment from them.

Now this is just a crazy thought, but if people aren't motivated to give up more of their time to buy a new car, a bigger house, etc for a "better" life, then is it really a better life? I've got to say I didn't study postgrad economics but "the market should accept the price I'm offering and if it doesn't it's the market that's wrong" is not an economic theory I'm really familiar with.

Nobody has ever wanted to work. That's the premise of every sitcom and a whole bunch of our literature dating back to the beginning of the industrial age. Work sucks, the boss is a dick. If people being content to consume less and enjoy more of their freetime undermines our economic system, then maybe our system needs to adapt.

 

[CorbLand]

We still make plenty of useful stuff that other countries want and need, but we are trending in the wrong direction was my point, all of the newly "created" jobs are hotels, restaurants, retail, etc, when we really need steel production, aerospace, energy, any manufacturing to decrease our foreign dependence

We will still be dependent on other countries. We simply do not have the resources to do it ourselves. My point is why would we waste our time producing things when that is not what our economy is built on. We once did produce a lot but as a society we have moved away from that.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

We still make plenty of useful stuff that other countries want and need, but we are trending in the wrong direction was my point, all of the newly "created" jobs are hotels, restaurants, retail, etc, when we really need steel production, aerospace, energy, any manufacturing to decrease our foreign dependence

Right on! COVID-19 taught this country that we cannot be dependent on other countries for critical goods- drugs, micro chips, toilet paper, etc... Cheap foreign labor, environmental regulation, a "throw away" society, and other factors have got us into this predicament.

Getting out of it is going to be nearly impossible at this point, and it is frightening to think what would happen in the US if a foreign actor permanently crippled our infrastrucutre through a computer virus or God forbid an EMP attack. I highly recommend everyone read or listen to the book "One Second After" Newt Gringrich wrote the forward and this book will scare the heck out of you.

For efficiency and to maximize profits, inventories in all sectors are kept low counting on very regular replenishment. For example, many grocery and drug stores have less than a 30 day supply of food and critical life saving and maintenance drugs- insulin, blood pressure meds, pain killers, etc... What happens when the electricity goes out for a significant amount of time. No refrigeration, no trucking, no shipping, etc... Within a week or two our incredibly complex and dependent society completely breaks down and we go back 150 years. Within a year the US could lose 2/3 of the population due to a lack of life saving drugs, disease (bad water no sanitation), starvation, violence, etc... This all happening without a large scale invasion or nuclear war. Heck our enemies wouldn't even have to fire a shot.

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

Entitlement programs have destroyed the incentive to work in this country. Welfare, Title 19, WIC, etc..., were intended to be short term safety nets to bridge the gap between jobs for folks having a hard time. However, generations have learned to take advanatage of the system and it has become endemic in families across the country. I live outside a town of 1,100 people. The nearest "big city" is 25 miles away and has a population just shy of 10,000. There are long lists of open jobs in the weekly shopper every week and not because there is a labor shortage.

While a little extreme, Costa Rica has a very interesting model. Their government is a "socialist" democracy, and workers all pay into a federal pension system, similar to social security. However, when one loses their job for whatever reason (except accident or disability) they have 30 days to regain employment or they forfeit ALL that they have paid into the pension plan. This is how they keep able bodied people in the workforce and off the welfare rolls.

Costa Rica also dedicates 7% of their GDP to public education, including college, has a universal healthcare system, and abolished the military in favor of a national guard with no expeditionary capability.

I would imagine if we'd spent trillions on education, healthcare, and infrastructure instead of Iraq and Afghanistan and drone strikes across the world we might have a different economic outlook.

 

[CorbLand]

For efficiency and to maximize profits, inventories in all sectors are kept low counting on very regular replenishment. For example, many grocery and drug stores have less than a 30 day supply of food and critical life saving and maintenance drugs- insulin, blood pressure meds, pain killers, etc... What happens when the electricity goes out for a significant amount of time. No refrigeration, no trucking, no shipping, etc... Within a week or two our incredibly complex and dependent society completely breaks down and we go back 150 years. Within a year the US could lose 2/3 of the population due to a lack of life saving drugs, disease (bad water no sanitation), starvation, violence, etc... This all happening without a large scale invasion or nuclear war. Heck our enemies wouldn't even have to fire a shot.

This is nothing new though. Humans have been one catastrophic event away from extinction since the beginning.

 

[ETtikka]

We will still be dependent on other countries. We simply do not have the resources to do it ourselves. My point is why would we waste our time producing things when that is not what our economy is built on. We once did produce a lot but as a society we have moved away from that.

because in theory we don't want to be dependent on a communist country, at least I hope so.

An economy that is built on retail, hotels, restaurants, etc, vs GDP type jobs is too dependent on other countries.

 

[ODB]

I don't understand how you can look at someone who is living a fairly low-cost lifestyle and content with that and call them lazy. What you're saying is that they aren't obsessing over material goods enough.

not saying that at all. And it’s more complicated than just people living to a certain expectation.

the laziness part is when people eschew work in lieu of a handout. Is that not laziness? A low-cost lifestyle paid for by other IS a liability to the society.

and my overall point was that the market can only do so much to make people come to work. It’s not JUST about money, but the expectations a person has for their own life. When that supersedes the importance of money to them, the market becomes irrelevant; they have what they need - the market be damned.

I live as low-cost a life as possible. Might not look like it to others, but extravagance isn’t in my vocabulary. Practicality rules everything.

 

[Trial153]

"People don't want to work" is a nonsense complaint.

Look, the fundamental premise of market economies (i.e. capitalism, even market socialism) is that equilibrium is achieved where the demand curve and the supply curve meet. Well labor is a supply, and jobs are the demand. If we have people who are available to work a job, but they're not working the job, then that means that to reach equilibrium employers need to increase wages or otherwise provide additional value until their demand meets the available supply. It's on par with saying "ammo costs too much because I can't buy a case of 5.56 for $200" well sorry buttercup, the price you're offering isn't enough to compete in the market.

Look I don't want to work at McDonald's anymore than anyone else here but if it paid better than bean counting I'd do it tomorrow. For the right price I'll lick your toilet seat clean. Supply and demand. If we wanted factories to open in the US, we would probably want to look at the wage stagnation in the last 60 years, rack those wages back up (would be between 12 and 18/hr starting out, depending on the job and area). You want to attract long-term employees, start talking employee-owned companies instead of public stock.

There is a worrying trend that I don't see enough right-thinking people opposing: prison labor outsourcing. State prisons selling prison labor to for-profit companies. Great, now there's even more financial incentive to put people in prison and keep them there. I am continually shocked that people aren't more skeptical of any process that makes it profitable for the government to imprison people.

On the topic, there's two major reasons that a large companies don't want to bring back manufacturing to the US. Regulation and taxation. You can't dump waste in the river in the US for more than about 8 straight years without incurring the wrath of the EPA, but you can pay off a regulator in Vietnam cheaper than you can ensure that a textile plant doesn't kill all the fish. Labor was one of the reasons why manufacturers offshored, but shopping for tax havens while avoiding safety and pollution regulations was a big part of it too.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

This is nothing new though. Humans have been one catastrophic event away from extinction since the beginning.

The horrifying reality of a targeted EMP strike by foreign actors is that they could isolate the damage to only the US, leaving the door wide open for our "allies" to provide "aid" after we are so sufficiently devastated as a country that we lack the means to protect/defend our sovereignty.

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

not saying that at all. And it’s more complicated than just people living to a certain expectation.

the laziness part is when people eschew work in lieu of a handout. Is that not laziness? A low-cost lifestyle paid for by other IS a liability to the society.

and my overall point was that the market can only do so much to make people come to work. It’s not JUST about money, but the expectations a person has for their own life. When that supersedes the importance of money to them, the market becomes irrelevant; they have what they need - the market be damned.

I live as low-cost a life as possible. Might not look like it to others, but extravagance isn’t in my vocabulary. Practicality rules everything.

I'm a numbers guy. Show me that government handouts are the problem with real, verifiable numbers.

 

[CorbLand]

I'm a numbers guy. Show me that government handouts are the problem with real, verifiable numbers.

Handouts are playing a role but they are not the only or even the major thing.

The thing that is happening right now is that employees are in control. For the last 10 years businesses have ran on the mentality that they dont need employees and that employees are dependent on them to make a living. In reality, business are equally as dependent on employees showing up as employees are dependent on the paycheck. When this gets out of balance, one side has to give to bring it back into balance.

The same thing happened in 2008 but it was the other way around. Businesses were able to suppress wages as the supply of workers was higher.

 

[ETtikka]

Unfortunately , the strength of your currency/bonds is tied to making useful goods (GDP). just ask Zimbabwe and Venezuela. When stock/bond markets weaken, people buy the us dollar for a reason, then we can sell bonds with that strength.

 

[ETtikka]

I'm a numbers guy. Show me that government handouts are the problem with real, verifiable numbers.

Spoiler Alert,, this aint good, and if McDonalds starts paying 20$/hr to recruit workers, anyone want to guess what a "fast food" meal will cost. To be considered unemployed you have to be actively seeking a job.

 

[roadrunner]

Entitlement programs have destroyed the incentive to work in this country. Welfare, Title 19, WIC, etc..., were intended to be short term safety nets to bridge the gap between jobs for folks having a hard time. However, generations have learned to take [advantage] of the system...

I would submit that piss-poor performing politicians (aka "The Quad P Crowd") used it to stay in office and the generations were used as pawns as means to stay in office...

and my overall point was that the market can only do so much to make people come to work. It’s not JUST about money, but the expectations a person has for their own life. When that supersedes the importance of money to them, the market becomes irrelevant; they have what they need - the market be damned.

This is still a variable in the market equation, much like disinterested workers are in the unemployment equation relative to market demand of labor.