Bowhunter needs rifle help

[GKPrice]

Along the lines of the Hog Hunter mentioned earlier, you could also look at the Ruger American Predator in 6.5CM. I have one as a range gun but may bring it out for a few hunts some day. My next choice would be a 7mm-08 or 308...really just a toss up IMO

a couple of the guys that work at the local gunshop got American Predators in 6.5 CM - the targets are plastered all around the store - apparently they are shooters and price is sure "right"

 

[AkMtnRunner]

You may want to reconsider the 308. There are still light bullets in that caliber that will shoot like a laser with faster velocity than comparable bullet weight from the 6.5. Then there's the cheap 308 and 7.62 bulk ammo for practice and fun. On top of all that, you have the wide open door for heavier bullets for elk and bears.

Then again, I can see it making a lot of sense going the 6.5 route now, then picking up a bigger caliber on a longer case in the future. If you're a tinkerer, I bet you'll have way more than one rifle in a few years

 

[MTBOWHUNTER542]

I'm going to try to get to my local Cabelas this weekend to check out both the Christensen Ridge Line, Mesa, Tikka, and Negara.

 

[GKPrice]

You seem seem to be focused on shooting.... That's good. Listen to the shooters. 30/06, 308, and any magnum have too much recoil, cost too much, and offer no advantage to the 6.5 Creedmoor. A Tikka T3 in 6.5C with a scope designed for shooting is about the most solid, easy, best performing setup you can get out of the box.

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your mailbox is full

 

[howl]

If you want to shoot a bunch then a .308 Tikka CTR. .308 because ammo for 200 yards target shooting is fairly cheap. On a hunting rifle, once you get good enough quality you're better off using the rest of the budget to get a better scope and mounts than you are if you go for a better than good enough rifle.

Tikka CTR .308 with 2-10x like Vortex Razor HD LH or Leupold VX5 or Burris Veracity or... is where I'd look if I didn't reload. If I did, and I do, I'd be more interested in a .270 WSM.

 

[ATX762]

Well...driven to the same speeds, a .308 caliber bullet does actually offer a meaningful increase in killing power over a .264 bullet (6.5). In the same way that a .338 bullet kills better than a .308 and a .358 bullet kills better than both of them.

There was recently a long debate on this forum about the killing power of a 7mm mag (.284) vs 300 win mag (.308) with one of the participants claiming that after witnessing hundreds elk kills, the 308 bullet diameter definitely had an advantage over the 284. It just makes a bigger hole. Obviously even the .284 is much bigger than a .264

For animals up to mule deer, a 6.5 is great. But for elk, you're losing a bit of wiggle room. Can you kill an elk with a 6.5? Yes obviously. F8ck yeah. In the early 20th century, people killed brown bear with 30-30's all the time, and likely still do. Tons of old timer buddies of mine still smoke moose with 30-30's. I've killed a lot of whitetails with a .223.

That said, 30-06 is what 95% of folks would consider the all around North America caliber. Yes, this is a boring answer. But there is a very, very good reason for the 30-06's popularity. It's a very versatile round with a lot of power and it is right on the upper edge of recoil that most folks can tolerate without a lot of practice. Ammo is cheap and you can buy it everywhere and the bullet selection in factory ammo is *unmatched*. Fast and light, heavy and slow, right in the middle, bonded or not, solid copper or not, explosively expanding or not...there is no other caliber that offers anything approaching the same ammo selection that the 30-06 does.

To a somewhat lesser extent the same goes for the .308 but the 308 really does give up a fair bit of velocity when you're launching 180grain bullets.

The 30-06 is cheap to shoot and you will always be able to get ammo, no matter what happens the next election cycle (most of esoteric calibers get very hard to find when people worry about the Democrats getting back into office).

Anyway, regardless of caliber, the number one factor in your ability to make a shot successfully on an animal is going to be how many rounds you put downrange through your new rifle. You want to be thinking in the high hundreds or low thousands of rounds. It's no different from shooting a bow. Making even a 400 yard shot really does depend on a lot of repetitions--unless you happen to get perfect conditions on your hunt.

In other words, you're better off putting $1K into a rifle and $500 into ammo than you are putting $1400 into rifle and $100 into ammo. It's the Indian, not the arrow.

I've spent a bit of time on the precision rifle range shooting 6.5's, but I don't own one. I'm more of a 7mm-08 guy, I've always got 3 or 4 rifles in that caliber. Just a lot more ammo selection than the 6.5 and a ton more bullet choices and it just hits a bit harder overall. But if I had to get rid of all my rifles (which would take a long time) the rifle I would keep, always, every time, would be a 30-06.

That said in the end, there's a lot to be said for buying a 6.5 or 7mm-08. Both are much easier to shoot than an -06. I've been a shooting instructor for about 20 years...nearly everyone shoots better with those mid-power calibers. They really kick a lot less. And if you've got a 6.5 or a 7mm-08 you can always get a 300 mag later. You are going to end up with a lot of rifles anyway, eventually.

 

[slvrslngr]

K.I.S.S. Tikka 30-06. Or Ruger or Winchester or Remington or whatever rifle floats your boat. Just buy it in 30-06. Yes, it does recoil more than a Creed or 7-08, but keep your range sessions short and focus on quality shooting, you'll do just fine. There's not a more versatile round out there, period.

 

[MTBOWHUNTER542]

I made it to Cabelas today to look at a bunch of rifles.
Got to check out a Christensen Ridge Line. That is one sweet rifle, but way out of my budget! A couple Tikkas, Sami A7, and the Bergare HMR. Its going to be a tough choice between these rifles.

 

[robtattoo]

Might I make a further suggestion?

Bugger off to Wal-Mart & buy a Rem 700adl in whatever caliber they gave better than a .243.
I'd bet pennies to peanuts they've got one in either .308, 7-08 or .30-06.
While you're there, grab a Leopold Rifleman 3-9x40 & 5 boxes of ammo. If you've spent $600, I'll be shocked & I'd almost guarantee you'll get your money back on your local hunting/shooting forum.
Go burn those 100 rounds & tell me it isn't everything you need......

Walk, then run.
Nobody learns to drive in a Ferrari...

 

[mtmuley]

Might I make a further suggestion?

Bugger off to Wal-Mart & buy a Rem 700adl in whatever caliber they gave better than a .243.
I'd bet pennies to peanuts they've got one in either .308, 7-08 or .30-06.
While you're there, grab a Leopold Rifleman 3-9x40 & 5 boxes of ammo. If you've spent $600, I'll be shocked & I'd almost guarantee you'll get your money back on your local hunting/shooting forum.
Go burn those 100 rounds & tell me it isn't everything you need......

Walk, then run.
Nobody learns to drive in a Ferrari...

Good advice there. mtmuley

 

[ATX762]

Buying a decent rifle at Walmart is good advice, or the spirit of it is. A Rem 700 SPS from Walmart (I dunno if they sell the wood stocked ADL's anymore) will be good until it shoots out its "bedding," i.e. sheet of plastic, which they often do at least in 30-06 and up. That said I've bedded a lot of busted SPS stocks and if you just fill the area behind the recoil lug with XYZ bedding compound, they are GTG. 100 rounds is fine for a guy hunting in timber, it's somewhat under practicing for a guy intending to take 400 yard shots who has not shot much. A 400 yard shot with a rifle is about like a 25-30 yard shot with a trad bow. Doable, but if you wonk something or you haven't shot enough to understand the conditions, you're going to wound the animal. Just like bowhunting, we generally shoot worse at the moment of truth than we do on the range.

If you only want to buy one rifle that you won't have to replace, as mentioned above, get a Tikka 30-06. They are slightly more likely to be accurate out of the box than a Remington 700, which generally need to be bedded to perform to their potential. But a 700 is a great platform and also will not be that expensive. I've got tons of 700's and only one Tikka. They perform for all practical purposes equally but the Tikka did it without needing bedding. Also Winchester, Ruger, etc, are all good, just get the better ones that weren't designed for the box stores, i.e. get the Ruger m77 not the American.

In the end, if you really want to shoot out to 400, buy a case of ammo and get out on the long range. Nearly any of the above rifles and any of the above calibers will work. But first/only rifle...really a 30-06 is the most common one and there's a reason.

 

[MTBOWHUNTER542]

A friend of mine says to look into a few different rifles to include the Kimber Hunter series, Bergara b14 hunter, and a Christensen Mesa. Any body have any hand on experience with the Bergara or CA Mesa? Seems my fondness for heavier barrels is getting tested! Really just want a quality rifle that I don't need to upgrade or fix right away. I might save longer and look again at the Ridgeline. Thanks for all the advice and info so far, this is why I love this forum community.

 

[ATX762]

I think you need to get out there and shoot stuff and carry stuff, my man. Liking a heavier or lighter or longer or shorter barrel on paper is like liking a woman or a pair of shoes that you read about online. It's useful to think about, up to a point, but may or may not have *any* correlation whatsoever with actually using that stuff in reality.

What you will hear mostly from guys who shoot a lot and kill a lot of stuff is that get something good but fairly common and shoot the hell out of it and you'll realize that in the end, the thing that always needs maximum upgrading is the shooter.

I have enough money tied up in firearms to buy myself another nice house, my ammo budget runs into the 5 figures every year, I have had many many months of professional shooting instruction at the best shooting schools in the country... and I still shoot mostly modified Remington 700's. Half my buddies run modified 700's of some type and the rest run custom actions or maybe Tikka's, a few Winchesters and Rugers and Savages. That is what guys who really shoot run--nearly anything, in other words, but based on their actual experience operating the weapon.

It's no different from a bow. Which archer is better--the guy with $1k in gear who then takes $1k in vacation time to shoot the hell out of the bow...or the guy who has $2 grand in gear and spent all his money on the gear and doesn't have the time to get good? This is literally no different.

My point being, you could buy *any* of the above rifles and they would all work for you equally well. As would a Tikka. Or Remington. Get something in a common caliber big enough to shoot elk with a light contour 22-24" barrel. It should end up around 8 lbs scoped to damp recoil, a little less is fine, a little more is fine. Unless you weigh 90lbs, you can carry an 8 lb rifle all day and you can shoot it all day as well. For a new shooter, a 7 lb rifle unless it's a very light caliber will eventually get tiring to shoot. Spend at least $300 for a scope and get something on the lower end of the magnification range, i.e. 3-9, 2.5-8, etc. Most likely, you will have that rifle for the rest of your life. Or until you get bored with it.

 

[Idaho Lefty]

Buying a decent rifle at Walmart is good advice, or the spirit of it is. A Rem 700 SPS from Walmart (I dunno if they sell the wood stocked ADL's anymore) will be good until it shoots out its "bedding," i.e. sheet of plastic, which they often do at least in 30-06 and up. That said I've bedded a lot of busted SPS stocks and if you just fill the area behind the recoil lug with XYZ bedding compound, they are GTG. 100 rounds is fine for a guy hunting in timber, it's somewhat under practicing for a guy intending to take 400 yard shots who has not shot much. A 400 yard shot with a rifle is about like a 25-30 yard shot with a trad bow. Doable, but if you wonk something or you haven't shot enough to understand the conditions, you're going to wound the animal. Just like bowhunting, we generally shoot worse at the moment of truth than we do on the range.

If you only want to buy one rifle that you won't have to replace, as mentioned above, get a Tikka 30-06. They are slightly more likely to be accurate out of the box than a Remington 700, which generally need to be bedded to perform to their potential. But a 700 is a great platform and also will not be that expensive. I've got tons of 700's and only one Tikka. They perform for all practical purposes equally but the Tikka did it without needing bedding. Also Winchester, Ruger, etc, are all good, just get the better ones that weren't designed for the box stores, i.e. get the Ruger m77 not the American.

In the end, if you really want to shoot out to 400, buy a case of ammo and get out on the long range. Nearly any of the above rifles and any of the above calibers will work. But first/only rifle...really a 30-06 is the most common one and there's a reason.

I am a Bow and a Rifle Hunter, have been, a Gunsmith and built Rifles for, serious Hunters, "World Wide" for, 25 years ! I have Hunted the West for Elk, Deer, Moose and Antelope and have owned a ton of, Rifles when, "IN" the Business ! NOW, I own, ONE Big Game Rifle, a Model 700 SPS, Glass Bedded, Free Floated, Harris Bipod, Shooting sticks for sitting, Timney Trigger, 4.5 X 14 Burris Scope w/ Drop Tables to 725 Yards ! My, Total COST,.. under, $1000.00 about $1,200. if work done, by Gunsmith. The Gun shoots .5 to .6 MOA or, better and with a "Boiler Room" shot, on an Elk, Moose, lge Deer, will KILL "reliably' at 5-600 Yards with the "RIGHT" Bullet ! This Guy Above, ^^^^ KNOWS,.. what he's talking about ! The 7 Rem Mag with 150- 160 Grain Bullets is Flat shooting and NOT much more Recoil than, an .30-06 Which is still a great Caliber, too ! Good Luck with your decision ! Doug

 

[Idaho Lefty]

YUP,.. Most serious, "Riflemen" shoot Modified, Remington's like ATX762 ^^^ says and the 7MM Rem Mag.,.. doesn't kick,.. "THAT BAD" !
I used to shoot a .338 Win Mag, a lot,.. "WHEN YOUNGER" ,.. no thanks !!,.. I shoot way better with less Recoil, now !
Yes,.. practice practice, practice,.. offhand at 100/ 150, sitting w/Sticks to 300, Bipod PRONE to 500- 600 Yards ! Then, you ARE,.. ready to Hunt, anything ! You will only need, to build ONE accurate, Big Game Rifle so, don't let a couple hundred Bucks, sway you too, much !

 

[Idaho Lefty]

OOP's !! I forgot to mention the Rem. Factory BBl's ARE good, BUT read up on, "Breaking them IN" when, New and don't let the Barrel get HOT !
a 7mm Mag will burn out a bbl quickly, if not cleaned properly or, if,..too hot !

 

[GKPrice]

a lot of good advice in this thread ...... AND ....... a lot of bullshit

 

[ATX762]

7mm mag is also a great caliber, def a notch better for all around western hunting than the 30-06, only downside is ammo cost and generally one less round in the mag (which will matter very very rarely). To me they'd be basically a toss up, edge going to the 7mag in the field, edge going to the 30-06 bc you'll be able to afford more practice.

Both of those calibers will be equally reliable as a 6.5 Creed on deer sized game. But both will be more reliable on elk sized game than a 6.5 Creed will be.

Sort of going through my inventory of rifles...just a lot of Rem 700's of different vintages, from the late 60's until now, bought at pawnshops, walmarts, etc...they pretty much all shoot lights out when you bed them, no matter what stock you use. I have bought old 700's for $250 that looked like they had been run through a gravel separator but when i floated and bedded them they shot great.

Which is basically to say...all the guns mentioned above would work. I realized I've sort of been busting on the Ruger American...I should be clear that my objection to it is really just aesthetic, I just like their very simple M77 Mauser-knockoff action better. But that is really an aesthetic/emotional objection and not a practical one. People do seem to like them. At any rate, I have been commenting a lot here...and will hereby sign off. Good luck!

 

[Idaho Lefty]

a lot of good advice in this thread ...... AND ....... a lot of bullshit

LOL !! YUP,.. I agree,.. Lots of,.. "OPINIONS" ! Most of the idea's, would work, fine ! Some B.S. probably, no doubt ! ALL,... entertainment for, sure !!

 

[GKPrice]

7mm mag is also a great caliber, def a notch better for all around western hunting than the 30-06, only downside is ammo cost and generally one less round in the mag (which will matter very very rarely). To me they'd be basically a toss up, edge going to the 7mag in the field, edge going to the 30-06 bc you'll be able to afford more practice.

Both of those calibers will be equally reliable as a 6.5 Creed on deer sized game. But both will be more reliable on elk sized game than a 6.5 Creed will be.

Sort of going through my inventory of rifles...just a lot of Rem 700's of different vintages, from the late 60's until now, bought at pawnshops, walmarts, etc...they pretty much all shoot lights out when you bed them, no matter what stock you use. I have bought old 700's for $250 that looked like they had been run through a gravel separator but when i floated and bedded them they shot great.

Which is basically to say...all the guns mentioned above would work. I realized I've sort of been busting on the Ruger American...I should be clear that my objection to it is really just aesthetic, I just like their very simple M77 Mauser-knockoff action better. But that is really an aesthetic/emotional objection and not a practical one. People do seem to like them. At any rate, I have been commenting a lot here...and will hereby sign off. Good luck!

I'd think we would all like to hear how "a 7mm RM has the edge than a 30.06 for western hunting" (and let's not confuse "hunting" with "long range shooting", let's look at ballistics and bullets) .... Sure, there's been an ongoing debate, mostly campfire based, on which is "better" for ANY game since around 1962, (before that it was the 264 WM) but for hunters and shooters "in the know" that one's been put to bed - As far as the 6.5 CM is concerned I'll openly wager that the numbers of elk in the pile on the 6.5 CM's side of the fire ring build with unusually common occurrence from this year forward - I've already dissected 2 CM kills for the spent bullet via it's path and terminal resting place in adult ELK and now see no reason to expect other than a clean kill from a WELL PLACED, APPROPRIATE bullet launched from a reasonable distance