Body Fat %

[Ray]

People who started eating more red meat than usual were found to have a 50% increased risk of developing type 2 diabetes during the next four years.
Researchers also found that those who reduced red meat consumption lowered their type 2 diabetes risk by 14% over a 10-year follow-up period.


Is wild meat considered red meat?

If you read that article from the mayo clinic I posted earlier they found the red meat study to be slightly misleading.

The increase in diabetes and heart disease was found to correlate to processed red meat. (Sausage, bacon, etc) not raw red meat.

The prevailing theory is that the saturated fats were the same...the difference? Sodium.

But there's lots of people smarter then me looking at this stuff (and commenting here for that matter). I'm just a guy who likes the search function on google.

I personally feel, with no scientific data to back it up, that the processed foods, high fructose corn syrup, mutated grains, and hormones in our meat has more to do with our health then anything.

After getting into Paleo in 2012 I learned to take a more serious look at published studies. Paleo authors like Mark Sisson dig deep into the data and dicuss what the study authors never do. In the case of the above "red meat" data the cofactors - what else were the particpants eating - was not looked at. A venison steak was the same as a Big Mac in the study. Anyone with the intellect above a three year old knows they are not the same, but the studies these conclusions are drawn from lump them together and ignore the rest of the particpant's diet.

This spring the book Death by Food Pyramid was released. The author went through The China Studies and debunked their conclusions using the same data. After that she took a hard look at the US food system. Its not pretty, and their own research shows they know they are killing people.

 

[Rizzy]

Sauteed kale on Elk burgers is good too. To my taste Kale compliments Elk nicely, but then again I'm one of the ones that likes the flavor of leafy greens like Kale and Spinach.

It would be interesting to see how much body fat you lose per day on a hunt, both in cold weather and warm weather.

 

[Vandal 44]

There is a lot of good information in this thread. I don't think that 9% - 10% BF is going to be to hard on an individual if done the correct way.

When I was playing football in college I was 6' 2" 235 pounds and had 9% BF and that was tested in a dunk tank. I had no problem with strength or conditioning.

I believe it's the proper diet and exercise that a person need to look at. What type of protein, carbs and fats a person consumes. I eat a lot of baby spinach, kale, and nuts to off set the animal protein, this is coming from my DR.

Brock, I feel your on the right path, pay attention to the amount and the type of protein you are taking in and you will hit your goal

I am going to follow this thread

 

[5MilesBack]

To me, any cooked greens are about as nasty as nasty can get. The only way I can handle Kale at all is if I throw it in some soup raw right before I serve it up. And spinach never sees any heat of any kind except from the sun in the middle of summer while still on the plant.

 

[Becca]

I tend to eat a lot of kale/spinach/arugula raw either as a salad, or tossed with warm brown rice, quinoa, or whole wheat pasta dishes right before I serve them. Tossing 2 cups raw leafy greens into a single serving of something makes the serving look much bigger, and fills me up without feeling like I want a second helping. I also eat a lot of broccoli, and my favorite way to cook that these days is tossed in olive oil with a little sea salt and then oven roasted at 425 degrees for about 15 minutes. End result is a little crispy, and really tasty.

Larry, good info and advice above as always. I like that your idea of a "glass" of red wine is a 12oz serving...no dinky 4-5oz pours at your house I see

 

[5MilesBack]

I tend to eat a lot of kale/spinach/arugula raw either as a salad

Arugula is always one of my biggest garden items every year. I can't/won't eat a salad without it........lots of it. Use it as lettuce on sandwiches too. Now if I could just find bread like the old Homepride Buttertop Wheat that I've eaten for the past 30 years before Hostess Wonder shut down........I could actually start having sandwiches again.

 

[Larry Bartlett]

Thought I'd keep this thread alive for another day...

This meal is a staple in our home meal lineup:

View attachment 16059

Moose Meat, Broccoli, and Quinoa/black beans

Moose Meat:
6-oz steak = 230 calories (14 cals from fat)
Saturated fat = < 2%
Cholesterol = 22%
Protein = 50 gm
Iron = 40%

COMPARISON:
ELK Steak:
6-oz steak = 275 calories (42 cals from fat)
Saturated fat = 7% (9% saturated fat)
Cholesterol = 46%
Protein = 54 gm
Iron = 40%

Broccoli:
1 cup = 31 Calories (3 cals from fat)
Carbs = 2%
Fiber = 9%
Vit C = 135%
Iron = 4%
Calcium = 4%
Protein = 3 gm

The good: This food is very low in Saturated Fat and Cholesterol. It is also a good source of Protein, Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol), Thiamin, Riboflavin, Pantothenic Acid, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium, Phosphorus and Selenium, and a very good source of Dietary Fiber, Vitamin A, Vitamin C, Vitamin K, Vitamin B6, Folate, Potassium and Manganese.

Quinoa and Black beans:

Already discussed in previous reply, but all good stuff and whole grain alternative to rice or other starches.

Note on animal proteins vs plant protein should be considered, which is total cholesterol and saturated fats. This discussion started off questioning Body fat % and not muscle building or strength training. These are separate discussion IMO, because if body fat composition is the goal, then red meats should be a lessor source of your complete nutritional lineup...considering total cholesterol and saturated fats as it related to your overall nutrition and lipids composition.

As we get older, less red meat consumption and more plant-based proteins aid in overall health and vitality, which lowers our gradual risks of heart disease and diabetes...but only after our other dietary sources are considered, such as sugar intake (simple carbs), smoking, genetic disposition, and cardiovascular health. Furthermore, with age (>40 y/o) a diet that consists of a good balance of healthy red meats (game), salmon, and free range poultry, as well as nuts, legumes, whole grains, and lots of veggies for vitamin and mineral consistency, will prove to provide the lasting building blocks for healthy advanced age (>70 y/o).

If our diet is said to require roughly 60 gm of protein per day for good health balance and muscle strength, only about 1/3 of that protein should be from red meats. The remaining 2/3 of our total protein intake should come from viable and nutritious plant-based sources as mentioned above. This lowers our saturated fat and cholesterol consumption and also provides a solid foundation for muscle strength (cardiovascular and broad muscle development).

Just more food for thought gents, from one guy who eats well, trains every day, and hunts like a champion. I do agree that not every person requires the same specific diet, but in general you cannot go wrong with a balanced diet and moderate exercise.

Oh, and Becca...Roger that on the wine consumption. I actually drink about 30-oz every day for the extra calories. Call me a lush, but wine is fine like grapes from the vine...)

 

[fillthefreezer]

Thought I'd keep this thread alive for another day...

Oh, and Becca...Roger that on the wine consumption. I actually drink about 30-oz every day for the extra calories. Call me a lush, but wine is fine like grapes from the vine...)

way to try to confuse us, you couldve just said a bottle...

 

[Brock A]

Thought I'd keep this thread alive for another day...

Great information Larry! I feel like someone could have hours worth of discussion and learning with you.

I feel like my diet is pretty good, just not as educated as I would like to be on it. For meat I eat tons of chicken. Usually around 3 breast a day. I also eat lean turkey, steak and venison with the occasional side of bacon ;-). For fruits and veggies I eat baby spinach(TONS), romaine, broccoli, onion, tomato, avocado, banana, apples & bell peppers. Mix in a few protein bars at work here and there and you have a vague run down of food intake for the week. Pair it with 160 - 200 oz of water by the days end after a 3.5 mile mountain run and an hour in the gym and I feel like I am in the best shape of my life. Whats your opinion?

Brock

 

[Larry Bartlett]

Brock, sounds like a kick ass diet and routine to me, but I would question the chicken source. I did some research many years ago on store-bought (non free range chicken) health, and the results were surprising...the corn-fed infusion and genetic programming of non-free range chicken is saturated with growth hormones and other chemical nutritional support, which is intended to grow fat chickens really quickly to reduce manufacturing costs...so a chicken is slaughtered nearly a year before it matures compared to a free range bird. Makes me question how much of those hormones transfer to our bodies when we eat abundant quantities. However, If you feel strong, you tend to act strong, which suggests you appear strong.

EDIT: There has been no clearly defined difference between free range and organic chicken, except for antibiotic use in many free range birds. There has been no clearly printed details about what specific health risks are associated with eating regular store-bought chicken nor the specific hormones and antibiotics used in the raising and yielding. But...I question any unnatural processes used for store-bought chicken or beef/pork. IMO, wild is mild and better choices than anything commercially raised and processed.

Fill The Freezer...ha, lol...yeah i could have said "a bottle," but I drink from a box so I don't see the empty bottle as a reminder...plus, technically a bottle is about 27 or 28 ounces, so theoretically I'm a bottle plus 2 oz per day! When i write that out loud, I'm reminded that I might be drinking too much wine!

Maybe some Kale chips on the side will help...?

Later guys, have a great weekend.

 

[Brock A]

Brock, sounds like a kick ass diet and routine to me, but I would question the chicken source. I did some research many years ago on store-bought (non free range chicken) health, and the results were surprising...the corn-fed infusion and genetic programming of non-free range chicken is saturated with growth hormones and other chemical nutritional support, which is intended to grow fat chickens really quickly to reduce manufacturing costs...so a chicken is slaughtered nearly a year before it matures compared to a free range bird. Makes me question how much of those hormones transfer to our bodies when we eat abundant quantities. However, If you feel strong, you tend to act strong, which suggests you appear strong.

Americas food industry is JACKED! I have spent some time educating myself on that as well. I started buying my chicken along with other meats from a farm in Spokane. Direct from local farmer to me.

https://zayconfoods.com/

 

[Travis1984]

Brock what do you pay for a case of breasts?

 

[Brock A]

Brock what do you pay for a case of breasts?

The bulk order is boneless skinless thighs and it pencils out to $2.39 a lb but its 40 lb minimum orders. I split it with people in my office. I eat breasts when I buy from Costco or QFC. I just started this Zaycon deal. So far I have received some bacon and pork from them.

 

[Larry Bartlett]

here's another thread living meal choice, y'all:

Baby spinach salad with fuel and goodies.

Total cals around 550 and 8 gm protein

Cashew nuts 130 cals and 4 gm protein
Olive oil roughly 1 tbsp = 130 cals
pepper jack cheese = 120 cals
tomatoes two small dinks
one green onion sprig diced
1/4 lemon squeezed over spinach to wilt, then oil and S&P to taste
Basil (tbsp)
spinach = large hand full 2 gms protein and 14 cals
avocado = 1/2 large 2gms protein and 160 cals

good lunch choice after 7-mile run.

enjoy!

View attachment 16173

 

[onpoint]

Solid info here Warren. Single digit body fat % can be very dangerous and for most people, cannot be sustained for long periods. Females can be especially problematic. One of my ex's was a national champion track star. She was absolutely shredded for 10 months of the year. Her periods were nonexistent and she developed all kinds of reproductive organ issues. After losing an ovary, she ended up walking away form the Olympic team as the doctors told her to have kids now or never. BF% in the mid to low teens is a more healthy, sustainable approach. In that range, you are right on the doorstep of trimming down for a hunting trip or a beach photo shoot for SI. For the record, I'm in the upper teens til bike season gets ripping. Good luck.

Warren and PA-50, with all due respect guys these points are way off the mark. Yes, for females single digit BF% can be problematic but unless I missed something Brock is not a female. And single digit BF in no way whatsoever is "dangerous". Read any book about the early explorers, trappers, voyageurs and look at the pictures and you will not see a single person that could be described as anything but wiry. And these guys were often hauling huge canoes UPRIVER by poling, tracking, portaging. They seemed to manage just fine...for months. The whole concept of "dieting" is BS, no question about it, but as Larry B outlined this is not about dieting but changing your nutrient quality. Quality trumps quantity. If you eat like Larry suggests, although I'd say wild game is as good as any salmon, you'll probably eat MORE than you are right now and still drop BF.

As for "having enough" BF to sustain a season, the average person has enough fat reserves in their body (cells, bloodstream, and yes the visual BF) to survive a very long time without ANY food at all so if you're worried about keeping that extra 2-5% for that, it's a myth.

 

[onpoint]

There is SO much that goes into performance at a given body composition that it would be near impossible to tell you what is best for YOU. A few examples that come to mind are what is your "natural body type", how have you been exercising prior to your game day (hunting season in our case), how have you been feeding your body, do you have experience performing at restricted calories or at this particular body composition, do you know how to maintain it, your age, metabolism, ect. ect. And aside from all that, what may be best for one person may be terrible for another. Realistically, the only way to know what is optimal for you is to literally experiment with your body and see how it responds. It may take a few years to really dial it in, but you'll gain so much more knowledge along the way than someone telling you what they think is optimal for you.

My recommendation to you is to be performance driven vs outcome driven. Meaning, focusing on a bodyfat % (outcome) is less important than focusing on strength/conditioning goals (performance). In fact, focusing on the outcome is backwards from how we should be training ourselves. If you train your body to achieve a certain performance standard, the outcome (ie. body composition) will fall into place by default.

Great points here Ironman.

 

[PA 5-0]

Warren and PA-50, with all due respect guys these points are way off the mark. Yes, for females single digit BF% can be problematic but unless I missed something Brock is not a female. And single digit BF in no way whatsoever is "dangerous". Read any book about the early explorers, trappers, voyageurs and look at the pictures and you will not see a single person that could be described as anything but wiry. And these guys were often hauling huge canoes UPRIVER by poling, tracking, portaging. They seemed to manage just fine...for months. The whole concept of "dieting" is BS, no question about it, but as Larry B outlined this is not about dieting but changing your nutrient quality. Quality trumps quantity. If you eat like Larry suggests, although I'd say wild game is as good as any salmon, you'll probably eat MORE than you are right now and still drop BF.

As for "having enough" BF to sustain a season, the average person has enough fat reserves in their body (cells, bloodstream, and yes the visual BF) to survive a very long time without ANY food at all so if you're worried about keeping that extra 2-5% for that, it's a myth.

So if I read a book about the early explorers, will it reference body fat percents??? And what was the average life expectancy of those dudes back then??? My readings say 50-55yrs. Dont know if I would reference those guys as health examples to live by. Back to present day, fact of life is REAL body fat tests would hurt alot of feelings. The hydrostatic test(dunk test) is the most accurate last I checked. Calipers and $20 digital devices are incredibly inaccurate as alot of your body fat is stored internal.

Question: what do you think the body fat % of a PRO bodybuilder is going into a show??? Of the average Pro athlete??? Of a Pro cyclist when he finishes the most insane athletic event on earth, Le Tour de France???? I think most would be shocked by those numbers. Get back to me on that. I will try to post some pics later.

And regarding your statement "the whole concept of dieting is BS".....ummmmmm.... u must be in ur 20's when dieting isnt an issue. Dieting is a very broad term. It ranges from cutting and monitoring caloric intake to, as you pointed out, monitoring QUALITY vs QUANTITY. Adjusting salt and fat intake, etc, etc, etc.

And for having enough BF to sustain a season, I believe that wasnt referring to the average person but to dudes spending extended periods in the backcountry. Many threads on here referencing guys ending the season looking like stick figures. I think a recent post regarding a 2 week CO sheep hunt stated the dude's mommy didnt even recognize him when he came out of the mntns.

Good conversation in this thread.

 

[gelton]

So if I read a book about the early explorers, will it reference body fat percents??? And what was the average life expectancy of those dudes back then??? My readings say 50-55yrs. Dont know if I would reference those guys as health examples to live by.

I try to stay as far away from workout threads as I do the gym - far. But I enjoyed your lead in sentence so I clicked through to read your post. However, the life expectancy thing is skewed a bit. The biggest problem back then was infant mortality and child death which brings down the average life expectancy overall. If you made it past 5-7 years old though their life expectancy was actually longer than current day. Before insurance and hospitals and obamacare. They were breathing clean air, drinking clean water and eating healthier food.

 

[PA 5-0]

They were breathing clean air, drinking clean water and eating healthier food.

They certainly were!!!!!

 

[onpoint]

So if I read a book about the early explorers, will it reference body fat percents??? And what was the average life expectancy of those dudes back then??? My readings say 50-55yrs. Dont know if I would reference those guys as health examples to live by. Back to present day, fact of life is REAL body fat tests would hurt alot of feelings. The hydrostatic test(dunk test) is the most accurate last I checked. Calipers and $20 digital devices are incredibly inaccurate as alot of your body fat is stored internal.

Question: what do you think the body fat % of a PRO bodybuilder is going into a show??? Of the average Pro athlete??? Of a Pro cyclist when he finishes the most insane athletic event on earth, Le Tour de France???? I think most would be shocked by those numbers. Get back to me on that. I will try to post some pics later.

And regarding your statement "the whole concept of dieting is BS".....ummmmmm.... u must be in ur 20's when dieting isnt an issue. Dieting is a very broad term. It ranges from cutting and monitoring caloric intake to, as you pointed out, monitoring QUALITY vs QUANTITY. Adjusting salt and fat intake, etc, etc, etc.

And for having enough BF to sustain a season, I believe that wasnt referring to the average person but to dudes spending extended periods in the backcountry. Many threads on here referencing guys ending the season looking like stick figures. I think a recent post regarding a 2 week CO sheep hunt stated the dude's mommy didnt even recognize him when he came out of the mntns.

Good conversation in this thread.

I didn't say these books referenced BF%, nor did I say I even thought BF% was something the OP should focus on. What I did say was that those men were lean and wiry as sh*t and if you read about what they did you would be amazed what these guys were capable of with "dangerous" BF%'s as you put it. You however did suggest that a certain BF% was arbitrarily dangerous and then proceeded to use women as an example of this fact. This is at best inaccurate and at worst just plain wrong for an average male. At least my example had some logic to it.

And as for life expectancy as someone else suggested, life expectancy is due to a huge number of variables and for these guys access to doctors and medication, and natural risks such as hypothermia played a much bigger role in their life expectancy than their diet or BF%. The entire concept of "dieting" is flawed as it creates a focus on quantity over quality, if a person eats correctly and is moderately active they do need to count calories. If on the other hand we are talking about lifestyle change of which nutrition (aka diet) is a component, then no it's obviously not BS. And FTR, I'm in my 30s.

I am not sure what you were asking with the BF% question relative to the bodybuilders, etc.