Bitcoin

[ODB]

If the dollar were to disappear, we could use any number of other currencies or commodities as a reference point to evaluate the relative value of bitcoin. Right now 1 bitcoin = $100,000 = 96,550 euro = 728,640 yuan = 38.4 ounces of gold = 3,560 ounces of silver...

If the dollar disappeared, would your house become valueless because you could no longer price it in dollars? The dollar is not the only monetary unit in existence. If the dollar fails, something else will rise to fill its role…perhaps that something else will be bitcoin itself.

To the latter point, of course not. But give me its value NOT relative to a currency. And likewise, what is bitcoins value NOT relative to a currency? If you tied it to a commodity (pizzas or platinum), what is the value of the commodity NOT relative to a currency?

if i said, "I'll trade you your bitcoin for my 93 toyota." the first thing you'd do is laugh then say "My bitcoin it worth 100k:, your toyota is worth 1K". If I said, "Ill trade you your bitcoin for a fully loaded F350 with a 25' travel trailer, etc." You might say, "OK."This is what i mean when i say we inherently agree on the value of a dollar - we may not agree on how many dollars an item is worth (be it a coke or a car), but we see things in terms of dollars due to a shared understanding of its value in a market. When we agree that an item's cost is equal to it's value, we make a sale. Any conversation of bitcoin value is immediately related to dollars (or whatever currency). I am trying to understand how the value of bitcoin could ever be established outside of using a live currency as its comparison, and be unaffected by it - as I sometimes hear people say. Or conversely that bitcoin replaces the very thing that gives its value on a market.

 

[Afhunter1]

To the latter point, of course not. But give me its value NOT relative to a currency. And likewise, what is bitcoins value NOT relative to a currency? If you tied it to a commodity (pizzas or platinum), what is the value of the commodity NOT relative to a currency?

if i said, "I'll trade you your bitcoin for my 93 toyota." the first thing you'd do is laugh then say "My bitcoin it worth 100k:, your toyota is worth 1K". If I said, "Ill trade you your bitcoin for a fully loaded F350 with a 25' travel trailer, etc." You might say, "OK."This is what i mean when i say we inherently agree on the value of a dollar - we may not agree on how many dollars an item is worth (be it a coke or a car), but we see things in terms of dollars due to a shared understanding of its value in a market. When we agree that an item's cost is equal to it's value, we make a sale. Any conversation of bitcoin value is immediately related to dollars (or whatever currency). I am trying to understand how the value of bitcoin could ever be established outside of using a live currency as its comparison, and be unaffected by it - as I sometimes hear people say. Or conversely that bitcoin replaces the very thing that gives its value on a market.

How bout an example:

Let’s say you live in Russia and you’re ready to get the hell out before shit gets western. So you sell all your family’s financial instruments and jump on Coinbase and turn it all into bitcoin. You transfer it to your cold wallet and jump on a train to go “visit” grandma in Poland. You got all your family’s cash in your pocket, prison wallet, or whatever. When you get there you hop on Coinbase and sell some of your bitcoin for euros or whatever and buy a house. The lay person has never had this much financial freedom and/or political freedom. Will be amazing what people do with this power when it becomes mainstream and no govt can take it away from you.


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[ODB]

How bout an example:

Let’s say you live in Russia and you’re ready to get the hell out before shit gets western. So you sell all your family’s financial instruments and jump on Coinbase and turn it all into bitcoin. You transfer it to your cold wallet and jump on a train to go “visit” grandma in Poland. You got all your family’s cash in your pocket, prison wallet, or whatever. When you get there you hop on Coinbase and sell some of your bitcoin for euros or whatever and buy a house. The lay person has never had this much financial freedom and/or political freedom. Will be amazing what people do with this power when it becomes mainstream and no govt can take it away from you.


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Still not my point relative to how some people posit the future of bitcoin. It's the "sell the bitcoin for whatever" that is the hangup. People are saying it will replace money/currency - I just dont see how. There always has to be some form of relative comparison at the end of the day to use on the market.

Bitcoin may make different currencies easily fungible, but don't underestimate a country's ability to inquire as to the source of your new-found wealth.

and it's funny you mention Poland. My uncle is considering living there.

 

[ozyclint]

Bitcoin is money. Your dollar bill is a currency. Bitcoin is hard. Hardest asset in the history of man. And it absolutely can't be f'd with. Ban bitcoin you only hurt yourself. Any attack on bitcoin only makes it more powerful. Better study bitcoin or your progeny will know you were silly goose

One of the fundamental properties of money is that its value is stable over long periods of time. Yes your yanky dollar is currency as is every other fiat currency. Your dollar has lost +95% of its value in 100 years.

Bitcoin's value is not stable and hence it isn't used readily for transacting because of price rise FOMO.

You don't have to leave rokslide to see the hesitation of cashing in bitcoin- "Should I sell my bitcoin and go on a sheep hunt?"

It can't function as money if you fear the bitcoin you spent on a sheep hunt today will buy you 2 sheep hunts tomorrow.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

But give me its value NOT relative to a currency. And likewise, what is bitcoins value NOT relative to a currency? If you tied it to a commodity (pizzas or platinum), what is the value of the commodity NOT relative to a currency?

There is real (not tangible, but real nonetheless) value in the Bitcoin blockchain as a reliable, secure, decentralized record of transactions; the value of the blockchain imparts value to the token (individual bitcoins) required to utilize the blockchain. I concede that this idea is nebulous and can be difficult to wrap your mind around, but there is real value to the Bitcoin blockchain as a store of information.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

One of the fundamental properties of money is that its value is stable over long periods of time. Yes your yanky dollar is currency as is every other fiat currency. Your dollar has lost +95% of its value in 100 years.

Bitcoin's value is not stable and hence it isn't used readily for transacting because of price rise FOMO.

You don't have to leave rokslide to see the hesitation of cashing in bitcoin- "Should I sell my bitcoin and go on a sheep hunt?"

It can't function as money if you fear the bitcoin you spent on a sheep hunt today will buy you 2 sheep hunts tomorrow.

I would agree that Bitcoin currently doesn’t qualify as money. Its relative value (denominated in established currencies) is still very volatile and is being driven largely by speculation. But Bitcoin is young (16 years old) compared to established media of exchange (Federal Reserve Note = 112 years, gold = millenia), and price discovery is still taking place. We’re observing the birth of a free market money—a phenomenon that hasn’t occurred in recorded history—and it’s a bumpy process of trial and error. When ancient societies began transitioning from direct barter to indirect exchange, I would bet that gold’s relative value experienced wild fluctuations before it eventually stabilized and became the dominant form of money. I believe bitcoin's value relative to other currencies will eventually stabilize as it gains adoption, its market cap grows, and halving cycles become less impactful.

 

[CorbLand]

I would agree that Bitcoin currently doesn’t qualify as money. Its relative value (denominated in established currencies) is still very volatile and is being driven largely by speculation. But Bitcoin is young (16 years old) compared to established media of exchange (Federal Reserve Note = 112 years, gold = millenia), and price discovery is still taking place. We’re observing the birth of a free market money—a phenomenon that hasn’t occurred in recorded history—and it’s a bumpy process of trial and error. When ancient societies began transitioning from direct barter to indirect exchange, I would bet that gold’s relative value experienced wild fluctuations before it eventually stabilized and became the dominant form of money. I believe bitcoin's value relative to other currencies will eventually stabilize as it gains adoption, its market cap grows, and halving cycles become less impactful.

This theory doesn’t really match what many of the bigger firms are speculating.

Truth be told, I don’t think anyone truely has any idea what Bitcoin will become. Generally speculating on what will become currency if one crashes is pretty hard. It could become anything.

 

[MountainTracker]

One of the fundamental properties of money is that its value is stable over long periods of time. Yes your yanky dollar is currency as is every other fiat currency. Your dollar has lost +95% of its value in 100 years.

Bitcoin's value is not stable and hence it isn't used readily for transacting because of price rise FOMO.

You don't have to leave rokslide to see the hesitation of cashing in bitcoin- "Should I sell my bitcoin and go on a sheep hunt?"

It can't function as money if you fear the bitcoin you spent on a sheep hunt today will buy you 2 sheep hunts tomorrow.

So based on that example you are saying it’s a store of value, an asset.

When currencies crash (hyperinflation) people trade that in as quickly as possible for a currency that holds value or adds value. For example the El Salvadoran Colon, which was eventually traded into exclusively the USD, bc it was loosing its value against the usd. El Salvador is now holding, mining, pricing in btc bc the usd is loosing its value. When people hold something of value they don’t part with it easily (whatever that asset may be).

To keep with El Salvador theme, when you go to buy something there you will see two different prices, USD and BTC/Sats. If I have the choice why would I use btc to buy something when I know it’s going up in value. I would rather use something that is loosing value to make that purchase.


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[TreeWalking]

How bout an example:

Let’s say you live in Russia and you’re ready to get the hell out before shit gets western. So you sell all your family’s financial instruments and jump on Coinbase and turn it all into bitcoin. You transfer it to your cold wallet and jump on a train to go “visit” grandma in Poland. You got all your family’s cash in your pocket, prison wallet, or whatever. When you get there you hop on Coinbase and sell some of your bitcoin for euros or whatever and buy a house. The lay person has never had this much financial freedom and/or political freedom. Will be amazing what people do with this power when it becomes mainstream and no govt can take it away from you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What if the train crashes and your cold wallet is lost or burns? If you are mugged and the cold wallet is taken? The cold wallet developed an error code so can't be accessed? You die of a heart attack and the recovery code was not shared nor is the cold wallet found or recognized as anything except perhaps a backup drive of perhaps some old photos?

Many a family has legends of the glass jar of valuable coins or diamonds great-grandpa Robert buried somewhere around the farm. Most likely very few jars were buried but if the jar was and only Robert knew then may never be recovered.

What am I missing about the risk of using a cold wallet?

 

[Historybuff]

You don't need a cold wallet on your person. All you need is 12 or 24 words memorized or wrote down. All your bitcoin can be 12 words memorized in your head

 

[Historybuff]

 

[Historybuff]

Here is a video from blackrock to help explain

 

[Historybuff]

 

[Historybuff]

5 year chart. Bitcoin crashed today lol

 

[Mighty Mouse]

This theory doesn’t really match what many of the bigger firms are speculating.

Don’t leave us hanging…what are the big firms speculating?

 

[CorbLand]

Don’t leave us hanging…what are the big firms speculating?

Hasn’t it been posted in this thread that some of the larger firms are speculating 1 million by 2030 or something like that?

I swear someone posted a chart by Vanguard, Blackrock or somebody that speculated continued growth out to 2050. Am I going crazy?