bird dog caught in snare

[Vandy321]

Lots of assumptions, emotions and some downright lazy arguments here. Some well articulated points as well.

I do appreciate those who've offered thoughtful opinions, for or against.

An interesting conversion for me, never had it before and is good to hear opinions. I can understand the defensive nature in some, but some, sadly, have forgetten (or never learned in the first place) how to have non-emotional, fact-based conversations about hunting rights.

 

[Trap]

I dont recall advocating for a ban, simply asked a question and for opinions in support or against them.

It's no different than the crossbow debate, really. Both an equipment specific form of an overarching legal form of hunting.

Some states want to (or already have) banned crossbows for archery. Some states want to (or already have) banned snares for trapping.

Haven't seen a well articulated argument for snaring, or a cost/benefit analysis done by biologists. How often does it catch the intended prey? What is accidental kill rate? Does a snare on a game trail only kill wolves? How about fawns? Cubs? Dogs? Does that data even exist?

All valid questions I'd argue, just wanted to have the conversation.

Sneaky answered a lot of the questions already all snares have a stop and a break away device to protect deer and allow bigger moose etc to actually break free. Snares work in all winter months- leg holds are tough to keep functioning in winter which is most of the wolf trapping season. Responsible trappers don’t set snares on obvious deer trails etc. but the wolves will be where the deer and elk are. Some deer can still get caught in snares and die but with the precautions built in its not a lot. Cost benefit analysis would be joe blow the beginner trapper sets snares. He catches 2 wolves and 4 deer. Joe blow is obviously a really crappy trapper but By catching the 2 wolves he saved 45-50 deer but he killed 4 deer ,so the cost was 4 deer , but the benefit is he saved a net of 40 plus deer. Even in that terrible example deer and elk are better off with trappers snaring wolves. I know of a few hunting dogs that were caught in snares. I don’t know or have heard of even 1 hunting dog ever killed or seriously injured by a snare. It might have happened but I have never heard of 1 incident. I do personally know of at least 10 hunting dogs killed by wolves. That’s just hunters dogs that I personally know. Our hunting dogs are safer with snares than without them which would lead to an abundance of wolves too deal with.

 

[BuzzH]

Come on Buzz...you can Google, tell me what happened to the ML hunter who shot the bowhunter.

There are penalties for stuff like that, let's not pretend there aren't.

But the archery hunter was endangered by the muzzleloader hunter...you said, "What about when one use of public land endangers others or their hunting partner?"

Has nothing to do with any kind of penalty or lack-there-of...you made specific reference of one user possibly ENDANGERING others or their hunting partner.

 

[johnsd16]

Factual?!!! Your title is “nearly kills”. Total clickbait with high likelihood of escalating emotions. Explain where “nearly kills” is “factual” as you state. At what point did the dog nearly die, it had cable around its nose, at no point was it “nearly killed”.

You’ve been exposed, have been called out by informed individuals, and are being defensive, going so far as to call other members names. Not a great look.

Must get your post title inspiration from CNN.

 

[MattB]

Come on Buzz...you can Google, tell me what happened to the ML hunter who shot the bowhunter.

There are penalties for stuff like that, let's not pretend there aren't.

Are we talking about penalties or are we talking about what activities should be permitted in public land? Seems like you are shifting the goal posts now that you understand sentiment is not in your side.

 

[Vandy321]

But the archery hunter was endangered by the muzzleloader hunter...you said, "What about when one use of public land endangers others or their hunting partner?"

Has nothing to do with any kind of penalty or lack-there-of...you made specific reference of one user possibly ENDANGERING others or their hunting partner.

I'm just here for you to tell us again how dogs are more dangerous than the wolves...

 

[BuzzH]

I'm just here for you to tell us again how dogs are more dangerous than the wolves...

Where did you get that?

Oh, you must mean the FACT that domestic dogs kill more livestock in the US than wolves.

Sorry that facts scare you.

Also, since you brought it up...do wolves or dogs kill more people a year?

Maybe your hunting partner should be required to be on a leash while on public land, since your use of public land is endangering others.

Or maybe, just maybe there is a such thing as assumed risk and shared responsibility of all users of public lands. Trappers should not be banned because your dog might be snared on public (or private) land.

 

[MattB]

Sorry that facts scare you.

Stop with that, he may be forced to run to his opinion-only safe space. It has a tinfoil dome that deflects all facts.

 

[chadcharb]

Some buddies pulled into a pheasant release site this October and there was a sign posted that said there was snares in the area. They loaded up and went to a different spot.

 

[Trap]

As much as I hate banning stuff, I hate thinking about my birddog getting into a trap or a snare. That sucks. I don’t trap so I don’t know how it all works, but it’d be nice if there was a way to let others know that there’s traps in the area. Probably not feasible or enforceable, but it’d be cool if there was a good solution so both could do their thing.

This is already recommended by fish and game Many trappers have put out signs out for hunters with dogs. The problem is people use that to then find traps and steal the traps and catches

 

[william schmaltz]

As others have covered, carry a side cutter and be vigilant. I don't know a damn thing about dogs, but I'm sure training it not to fight the pressure isn't too tough. If you've ever set a snare and seen what a coyote does to that thing before it dies, you realize pretty quickly that it's not a quick process and your dog would not be dead before you can get there. Hell, you probably would have plenty of time to run back to the pickup if needed. Most of the time, it seems like it takes the animal wrapping the snare around the anchor a million times until it eventually unintentionally uses the anchor as additional leverage to finish the job.

To be fair to some comments, not all states require stops. Not like that would prevent a death on a dog so not sure what point people are making there anyways. I guess the dog from Instagram wouldn't have had his nose stuck?

One thing that I could maybe see where there is an argument is if the dog ran through a ram power snare. Those things freak me out and to be honest I'm not even sure if there are rules against them on public land; I've never had the intention of using one.

As far as foot traps are concerned since those were also mentioned in the original post, I was part of a foot trap BMP study about a decade ago. Trappers brought in their coyotes/fox and I worked with the wildlife vet to do a very detailed and meticulous dissection tissue by tissue where we recorded even the most faint signs of damage. Everything was put into a database with the trap used and we never knew which trap was used on each animal until after the dissection. The vast majority of people are using offset laminated foot holds. In this case, the most that will happen to whatever canine caught in a foothold is MAYBE some slight bruising. I've seen it duplicated probably hundreds of times with no outliers.

 

[Batch]

More like impossible you ban snares then leg holds will be next we will never effectively trap wolves or coyotes again after that

I can imagine trying to run a trap line with 20 live traps in tow . hahaha

i was cat hunting this year and had a guy stop me and my friend to let us know he had some traps set and what roads they were on. A great example of sharing the resource and land even though I'm a hound hunter and he is a trapper.

I think if we as hunters can communicate with each other better and not look at everyone on the mountain as competition outcomes would be better.

 

[Trap]

As others have covered, carry a side cutter and be vigilant. I don't know a damn thing about dogs, but I'm sure training it not to fight the pressure isn't too tough. If you've ever set a snare and seen what a coyote does to that thing before it dies, you realize pretty quickly that it's not a quick process and your dog would not be dead before you can get there. Hell, you probably would have plenty of time to run back to the pickup if needed. Most of the time, it seems like it takes the animal wrapping the snare around the anchor a million times until it eventually unintentionally uses the anchor as additional leverage to finish the job.

To be fair to some comments, not all states require stops. Not like that would prevent a death on a dog so not sure what point people are making there anyways. I guess the dog from Instagram wouldn't have had his nose stuck?

One thing that I could maybe see where there is an argument is if the dog ran through a ram power snare. Those things freak me out and to be honest I'm not even sure if there are rules against them on public land; I've never had the intention of using one.

As far as foot traps are concerned since those were also mentioned in the original post, I was part of a foot trap BMP study about a decade ago. Trappers brought in their coyotes/fox and I worked with the wildlife vet to do a very detailed and meticulous dissection tissue by tissue where we recorded even the most faint signs of damage. Everything was put into a database with the trap used and we never knew which trap was used on each animal until after the dissection. The vast majority of people are using offset laminated foot holds. In this case, the most that will happen to whatever canine caught in a foothold is MAYBE some slight bruising. I've seen it duplicated probably hundreds of times with no outliers.

The stop reply wasn’t about dogs in snares it was answering the op question about non target catches like deer. That’s great information on the leg holds thanks power snares are not legal in my state. I would doubt many states allow them

 

[Centralcoastca]

This is already recommended by fish and game Many trappers have put out signs out for hunters with dogs. The problem is people use that to then find traps and steal the traps and catches

That sucks that someone trying to do the right thing gets taken advantage like that, but I can see how it’d make for easy pickings for criminals. It should be highly fined to steal traps, then it’d be worth setting up some game cams and make some examples of them. Unfortunately the trappers are the minority of the minority (hunters in general) and such a thing isn’t worthy of dealing with to the the powers that be. It’s terrible that a worthwhile pursuit such as trapping is inevitably going to continue to circle the drain as the lack of logical response to overpopulation of predators takes a back seat to the popular uneducated emotions of people who only know about animals from Disney films. I used to buy a bobcat tag in ca. every year and never did get a shot at one and since they banned Bobcat hunting last year I have seen at least one almost every day I went deer hunting this year. This was also the year I saw my first two lions, one at 100yds. My friends are seeing both regularly. Bear hunting has been outlawed in my county for awhile and they’re everywhere. Zero chance that science is being applied in wildlife management with the furry “cute” animals here. The idiots are spreading out and taking their blurred logic with them.

 

[Trap]

That sucks that someone trying to do the right thing gets taken advantage like that, but I can see how it’d make for easy pickings for criminals. It should be highly fined to steal traps, then it’d be worth setting up some game cams and make some examples of them. Unfortunately the trappers are the minority of the minority (hunters in general) and such a thing isn’t worthy of dealing with to the the powers that be. It’s terrible that a worthwhile pursuit such as trapping is inevitably going to continue to circle the drain as the lack of logical response to overpopulation of predators takes a back seat to the popular uneducated emotions of people who only know about animals from Disney films. I used to buy a bobcat tag in ca. every year and never did get a shot at one and since they banned Bobcat hunting last year I have seen at least one almost every day I went deer hunting this year. This was also the year I saw my first two lions, one at 100yds. My friends are seeing both regularly. Bear hunting has been outlawed in my county for awhile and they’re everywhere. Zero chance that science is being applied in wildlife management with the furry “cute” animals here. The idiots are spreading out and taking their blurred logic with them.

Overpopulation of predators is unfortunately the game plan of anti hunters to kill hunting hard to justify deer tags when there’s hardly any deer left. Predators eat deer and elk and they are good at it

 

[manitou1]

Like stated above, not all states require stops. When I lived in Missouri, I had to attend a "restraining cable" class in order to use them. MO does not allow snares, but restraining cables, which are essentially a snare with a stop, a non-locking eye, and a breakaway. One can not set a snare within 12" of a fence or brush larger than 1". This prevents strangulation of non-target animals (and target animals for that matter).
They work but require a different mindset when using the restraing cables.

 

[Bear_Hunter]

Devils advocate here, but your claim about leashes is inaccurate...this is from the BLM website and the same goes for most NFs as well, unless otherwise posted

• "While leashes are not required on all trials, you should keep your dog close and under control when passing children, horses or other dogs. Please check the trail website or call the local BLM field office for leash policy."

I stand by my statement as I know the leash laws in Alaska where I live. BLM has nothing to do with any public land near me or a majority of the population here. There's a tremendous about of public land here that isn't BLM or any Federal agency. So, as I stated, most trap/dog encounters I hear about are a result of dog owners not following the law.

 

[12wander]

Trapping is a very regulated sport in most states as far as trap sizes and how and where they are set. Along with baits and attractors used.
Here in WI. we can only use snares in water beaver sets. On land we are regulated to using cable restraints with a 250 lb. Break away and deer stops. A cable restraint is not much different than a slip lead for a dog.
Trappers just need to use their heads when making sets and get away from the walking trails and two tracks. if you keep your dog controlled and in sight you have little to fear when it comes to traps and trapping.

 

[bowieknife50]

I accidentally shot my dog today.

I feel like absolute *****. The guilt is extremly heavy. After xrays, Gus (CLM)is going to be just fine, but that doesn't make it any easier. Ive been at this for 28 years and have never been part of something like this. He took 7 bbs of 6 shot lead to his front shoulder, rear hip, stomach...

www.refugeforums.com

Here is a post that has multiple references to owners accidentally shooting their own dogs. Guys with guns near dogs is a potential danger to the dogs. Should we ban firearms while bird hunting or just ban bird hunting with dogs? It clearly is an activity that is dangerous to them.

Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

 

[def90]

Yeah, as mentioned previously, Colorado has already banned them.. never mind the fact that someones dog getting snared was not the reason why, it was done simply as a citizen ballot initiative and was as an anti hunting/trapping move. They are now putting forth a ban on hunting all wild cats after voting to reintroduce wolves. The state CPW has pretty lost all control of wildlife management in the state.