Best practice for simple DOPE card?

[Formidilosus]

That’s a bs argument and you know it.

No, it’s not. Take a video of you standing with a pack on, going to prone, and hitting a 4 MOA target in less than 5 seconds, 3 times in a row, with unedited and unbroken footage. You don’t even have to hold over- it can be a 4” dot at 100 yards for this.

Someone believing that “after ranging” they will have 2 shots off in 5 seconds shows a serious lack actual timer usage- or they are legitimately world class 3 gunners or Norwegian/Scandinavian skyting competitor.

Now if you want to say “if I am already aiming at the animal and the trigger is prepped, and when the buzzer goes I can shoot, rack and shoot, in 5 seconds” ok. But that is not the same as seeing animal, ranging, getting into a position, holding or dialing correctly for the range, pressing a trigger, hitting, racking, aiming, pressing a trigger, and hitting again.

 

[4cMuley]

That’s the weakest argument I’ve ever heard. In 5 seconds after ranging Ill have two shots off. lol

 

[fwafwow]

How do you think game was shot at long range prior to scopes that could reliably dial? I first sighted in a 270 like that 45 years ago. Everyone I hunted with did. My wife shot her first big game animal at 450 yards with that hold. She wasn’t much of a shooter, but it worked quite well for her. My other friend rarely missed at 500 - 550.

Serious question. How did you range animals at 450 or 500-550 back in ‘78?

 

[TaperPin]

No, it’s not. Take a video of you standing with a pack on, going to prone, and hitting a 4 MOA target in less than 5 seconds, 3 times in a row, with unedited and unbroken footage. You don’t even have to hold over- it can be a 4” dot at 100 yards for this.

Someone believing that “after ranging” they will have 2 shots off in 5 seconds shows a serious lack actual timer usage- or they are legitimately world class 3 gunners or Norwegian/Scandinavian skyting competitor.

Now if you want to say “if I am already aiming at the animal and the trigger is prepped, and when the buzzer goes I can shoot, rack and shoot, in 5 seconds” ok. But that is not the same as seeing animal, ranging, getting into a position, holding or dialing correctly for the range, pressing a trigger, hitting, racking, aiming, pressing a trigger, and hitting again.

You guys crack me up - why in the World would any one get prone for 100 yards - if you can’t hit something the size of a deer at 100 yards offhand there’s a bigger issue. Even 300 yards it’s much faster to shoot sitting. It kills you that it takes extra time to dial and you go through all the mental gymnastics to try an go off in another direction.

I get the impression you guys don’t even try to shoot quickly and that’s fine with me, but young guys trying to learn how to have the best chance of killing something need to speed things along. Like I said earlier - I was caught dicking around 35 years ago and ever since then I focus on getting shots off quick.

 

[Formidilosus]

You guys crack me up - why in the World would any one get prone for 100 yards - if you can’t hit something the size of a deer at 100 yards offhand there’s a bigger issue. Even 300 yards it’s much faster to shoot sitting.

You said 450 yards in your post. How are you determining/measuring the time?

It kills you that it takes extra time to dial and you go through all the mental gymnastics to try an go off in another direction.

Of all the things you could argue about, this was the silliest.

I get the impression you guys don’t even try to shoot quickly and that’s fine with me,

I know my average time to first hit from standing to prone, to within .2 of a second on 2 MOA targets from 100-600 yards- both holding elevations and wind, and dialing elevation and holding wind. I also know what the best shooters in the world will do on demand with a data set that is several hundred thousand rounds deep.

 

[yycyak]

One of the best shooters and teachers out there @THLR showed exactly what happened in the "old days." I posted a thread on it when the video first came out. Check it out below.

I've seen/heard the old "You need to shoot quick, or else" nonsense before. Those guys don't hit near as much as they claim. Edit: Wanted to add that I don't mean you personally, maybe you're a stud shot. I really hope that you are. But I know I wasn't, and I was really frustrated at not being able to hit on-demand from 300m-600m using hold-overs, like the Old Timers said they could. And it didn't matter how fast I was getting a shot off, because I still couldn't hit.

So I did some reading, talked to some people who shot more than I did, and learned some stuff. I can now hit better than I did before, but I'm still learning. But I can confidently say that once I started dialing and not holding on air, my hit rates went way, way up.

I'll even make the offer here: Show an uncut video of a buddy of your choice setting up three 12" plates at random ranges somewhere between 250m and 600m. Start a 25sec timer, and show me you can go 3/3 with your hold-over method. I'll PayPal you $100 if you do.

And to answer OP's question: The best "Dope card" I've found is little stickers that you put right on the turret. The simplest was a piece of hockey tape on the side of the stock, with 100, 200, 300... 600m dope written in bic pen.

You guys crack me up - why in the World would any one get prone for 100 yards - if you can’t hit something the size of a deer at 100 yards offhand there’s a bigger issue. Even 300 yards it’s much faster to shoot sitting. It kills you that it takes extra time to dial and you go through all the mental gymnastics to try an go off in another direction.

I get the impression you guys don’t even try to shoot quickly and that’s fine with me, but young guys trying to learn how to have the best chance of killing something need to speed things along. Like I said earlier - I was caught dicking around 35 years ago and ever since then I focus on getting shots off quick.

 

[fwafwow]

I'll even make the offer here: Show an uncut video of a buddy of your choice setting up three 12" plates at random ranges somewhere between 250m and 600m. Start a 25sec timer, and show me you can go 3/3 with your hold-over method. I'll PayPal you $100 if you do.

If we can get an agreed upon neutral party to hold the money and act as judge, I will add another $100. Maybe we pass the hat again?

 

[sickles107]

I zero at 300. 100-200 hold 1/4 the way up the chest. For 350 hold 3/4. At 400 the hold is just barely over the back. At 450 the hold is half a deer chest over the back.

For an elk at 450, do you hold half an elk chest over the back? Or just barely half a deer chest over the elk back?

 

[TaperPin]

But I know I wasn't, and I was really frustrated at not being able to hit on-demand from 300m-600m using hold-overs, like the Old Timers said they could. And it didn't matter how fast I was getting a shot off, because I still couldn't hit.

Whoever said they can reliably judge distance that far out by eye lied to you. It’s simply not possible. As far as the average old guy, most of my relatives that hunted a lot could reliably hit a deer at 300 and that’s it. I learned more from competitive shooters than any hunter.

It helped that I grew up 7 minutes from a 500 yard range, and we shot and hunted constantly. 15 miles away was a 1000 yard range and had a lot of competitive shooters. One of my high school teachers who loaned me his shooting books was a competitive military position shooter, and I shot light rifle silhouette a bit - all those guys also shot high power that goes out to 500m . When you grow up alongside good shooters, who are all long range hunters, in the middle of Wyoming, if you want to learn that’s pretty hard to beat. I didn’t have to learn anything that many older guys weren’t already doing.

Before laser rangefinders, if you were a serious long range hunter, it took a lot of time practicing judging distance - much much more time than anyone spends today. I have terrible vision for judging distance - the best I can do is +/- 50 yards, which is why my max distance has been 400 yards unless someone is along with better distance judging. My main mentor had really good distance judging and he easily shot 100 yards further than I ever could. Some guys used their reticle to estimate range, and there have always been shops that will provide custom reticles for competition scopes for range estimation and holdover.

There‘s a big misunderstanding that somehow we didn’t work hard at long range shooting, and that because someone can’t pick it up quickly we must be full of crap. To get at long range shooting takes a lot of effort - then and now.

 

[TaperPin]

For an elk at 450, do you hold half an elk chest over the back? Or just barely half a deer chest over the elk back?

I could go through the math to put it in terms of elk if you really need that kind of help?

 

[TaperPin]

I know my average time to first hit from standing to prone, to within .2 of a second on 2 MOA targets from 100-600 yards- both holding elevations and wind, and dialing elevation and holding wind. I also know what the best shooters in the world will do on demand with a data set that is several hundred thousand rounds deep.

Why don’t you encourage the shooters that look up to you to get their shots off as quickly as possible?

 

[Formidilosus]

Why don’t you encourage the shooters that look up to you to get their shots off as quickly as possible?

?

 

[ljalberta]

For an elk at 450, do you hold half an elk chest over the back? Or just barely half a deer chest over the elk back?

I’d be real interested in hearing the long range holdovers for other game. Elephants could be measure in 1/3 trunk lengths. I like to imagine holdovers for an exotic like kangaroo is measured in pouch-holds.

Anyway, count me in the group who decided to see how fast I could actually get shots off and hit targets with Kentucky windage vs dialing. Holdovers, even taking time was bad. Very bad.

Dialing takes only a brief moment, but wow do the hit rates climb.

 

[yycyak]

Appreciate your comments. Definitely practice is critical.

But the elephant in the room is the one you completely ignored. And cynics will say that was intentional, too. There's $200 on the table for you to shoot 3/3 using your hold-on-air method, and no comment at all?

If/when (I really hope it's "when" and I get to eat humble pie, I honestly do) it happens, you might have some credibility. (Respectfully.)

I hate to be cynical, but I already know how this ends: the guy either ignores it, makes an excuse about why it won't work, or tries and fails, and then blames his equipment.

I am still holding out for the day when I'm proven wrong. Nobody wants to see a leupold fx-ii, duplex reticle, hold-on-air system work CONSISTENTLY and reliably more than I do.

Whoever said they can reliably judge distance that far out by eye lied to you. It’s simply not possible. As far as the average old guy, most of my relatives that hunted a lot could reliably hit a deer at 300 and that’s it. I learned more from competitive shooters than any hunter.

It helped that I grew up 7 minutes from a 500 yard range, and we shot and hunted constantly. 15 miles away was a 1000 yard range and had a lot of competitive shooters. One of my high school teachers who loaned me his shooting books was a competitive military position shooter, and I shot light rifle silhouette a bit - all those guys also shot high power that goes out to 500m . When you grow up alongside good shooters, who are all long range hunters, in the middle of Wyoming, if you want to learn that’s pretty hard to beat. I didn’t have to learn anything that many older guys weren’t already doing.

Before laser rangefinders, if you were a serious long range hunter, it took a lot of time practicing judging distance - much much more time than anyone spends today. I have terrible vision for judging distance - the best I can do is +/- 50 yards, which is why my max distance has been 400 yards unless someone is along with better distance judging. My main mentor had really good distance judging and he easily shot 100 yards further than I ever could. Some guys used their reticle to estimate range, and there have always been shops that will provide custom reticles for competition scopes for range estimation and holdover.

There‘s a big misunderstanding that somehow we didn’t work hard at long range shooting, and that because someone can’t pick it up quickly we must be full of crap. To get at long range shooting takes a lot of effort - then and now.

 

[yycyak]

I hate "Piling on", so I try to keep an open mind with these things.

But the thing is I was that guy. I said the same things to people. I read Jim Zumbo and Ron Spomer and Chuck Hawkes, and Jack O'Connor and Keith and Whelen. Outdoor Life, Field & Stream, Peterson Outdoors. All of them. I went over obscure-obscure 1912 US Army rifleman literature. British field manuals. All in hopes of making 200m+ shooting work with a Max Point Blank Range, "3-inches-high-at-100", etc. Hell, I was a country kid, so if anyone had the time and space to make it work, it was me.

It never freakin' worked. Not consistently. Sure, I'd get lucky sometimes, but it was 100% luck, and I'm not too humble to admit it. This is why I'm grateful to the 'Slide for showing me a different way to do things. And most importantly that "Way" worked for field shooting, for hunting - Not just on a flat range with a 30lbs F-class rifle where I can take 9 hours to make a shot.

A good razor is the "Show me" one. If someone says they can do X, okay I want to believe you, but show me first. It's pretty darn good at cutting out the pretenders.

Anyway, sorry to OP for derailing this thread.

Over/under on post count before the old FUQs start piling up and something along the lines of “you whipper snappers don’t know how it used to be and you clearly don’t want to listen to someone who actually knows what he’s talking about, so I’m going to leave this chit show”?

 

[Lawnboi]

I equate shooting without a real timer to shooting at rocks. It kind of works but becomes real easy to lie to yourself.

 

[TaperPin]

Appreciate your comments. Definitely practice is critical.

But the elephant in the room is the one you completely ignored. And cynics will say that was intentional, too. There's $200 on the table for you to shoot 3/3 using your hold-on-air method, and no comment at all?

If/when (I really hope it's "when" and I get to eat humble pie, I honestly do) it happens, you might have some credibility. (Respectfully.)

I hate to be cynical, but I already know how this ends: the guy either ignores it, makes an excuse about why it won't work, or tries and fails, and then blames his equipment.

I am still holding out for the day when I'm proven wrong. Nobody wants to see a leupold fx-ii, duplex reticle, hold-on-air system work CONSISTENTLY and reliably more than I do.

I’m quite comfortable with my setup - and how it shoots - long ago I stopped feeling the need to prove anything for credibility. If someone is interested in learning my take on shooting I enjoy sharing, if they don’t trust what I have to say then nothing I can do will change that.

For every shooter my suggestion is the same - hang a paper plate way out there on a tree and shoot one shot. If you can’t hit it with your position/rifle/rangefinder/dope system, it’s too far. Simple.

 

[TaperPin]

All in hopes of making 200m+ shooting work with a Max Point Blank Range, "3-inches-high-at-100", etc.

That does sound frustrating.
What if someone suggested to zero at 300 yards - now ringing the gong or hitting the paper plate at that distance is 100% your shooting ability and rifle accuracy.

This is for a 6.5 prc load of some kind, but 100 gr. 243, 130 gr 270, 140 gr 7 mag will be quite close.

At 300 yards if yardage is misjudged by 50 yards either way, you’re still less than 4” from the center.

So not knowing anything else, holding on the top of a 9” paper plate is pretty easy no? There’s your 350 yard hold. 50 yards either way and you’re still within 4” of hitting center.

If your shooting position is solid and you’re shooting good that day, I may not even tell you it’s 400 yards, just hold half a plate over the plate into the air. Seeing the eyes light up of a kid who’s never shot 400 yards is pretty cool. 1/2 a plate is pretty easy to judge, no?

Can you judge holding an air gap equal to the entire plate? Most people can. That’s less than 2” from the center of 450 yard impact. Even with a moa rifle/shooter that puts you on the plate every time.

In 20 minutes a moa shooter who has never shot past 100, can fire 4 shots and hit at 300 to 450 yards, and now has a system that is easy to understand, memorize and use in the field for a number of flat shooting calibers.

Check out the 2 moa wind hold I talked about - super easy to remember and it’s not more than 3” off dead center way out as far as this chart goes.

Past 450 requires a different approach - either a scope that dials or crosshair with graduations.

 

[texag10]

Why don’t you encourage the shooters that look up to you to get their shots off as quickly as possible?

He did start a thread dedicated with drills to get people practicing shooting from field positions, with their actual hunting gear, under time pressure.

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads...ice-posts-and-rifle-practice-shooting.165291/

 

[BLJ]

@TaperPin.

So if you are zeroed at 300, you can hold “air” and make (2) impacts on a 9” plate at 450 in 5 seconds? Is this correct?

This is what I’m getting from a couple different posts. I’m just wanting to make sure.