Best practice for simple DOPE card?

[Formidilosus]

@TaperPin.

So if you are zeroed at 300, you can hold “air” and make (2) impacts on a 9” plate at 450 in 5 seconds? Is this correct?

Why not? I can….










With a MK12.

 

[Dobermann]

Why is this place turning into Fudslide?
What is happening here?

The solution is elementary, dear Watson:

Recently-created Rokslide account + "I've been shooting for 35 years" (I recently saw someone here say 50) = recent retirement + too much time on the internet.

 

[BLJ]

Why not? I can….










With a MK12.

Fair enough. I’d be impressed to see it happen with anything.
I can’t do it, that’s for sure.

 

[Formidilosus]

Fair enough. I’d be impressed to see it happen with anything.
I can’t do it, that’s for sure.

Depends on what the starting position is. A legit shooter with a gas gun that’s made for speed (MK12) and a mil reticle starting in prone- not too hard. Starting from standing and going to prone with two hits on a 9” target at 450y in 5 seconds, that would be a stunt. Getting the shots off aren’t that hard, hitting is.

Doing all of that with a bolt gun? That’s going to be difficult even for the best shooters.

 

[BLJ]

Depends on what the starting position is. A legit shooter with a gas gun that’s made for speed (MK12) and a mil reticle starting in prone- not too hard. Starting from standing and going to prone with two hits on a 9” target at 450y in 5 seconds, that would be a stunt. Getting the shots off aren’t that hard, hitting is.

Doing all of that with a bolt gun? That’s going to be difficult even for the best shooters.

Dealers choice on starting position and rifle.
I’d like to see it.
@TaperPin has got me interested.

 

[Marshfly]

The solution is elementary, dear Watson:

Recently-created Rokslide account + "I've been shooting for 35 years" (I recently saw someone here say 50) = recent retirement + too much time on the internet.

LOL. Must be. That plus general hunting is over in a lot of the west as I watch the snow fly outside while binging on Youtube hunting vids.

 

[TaperPin]

@TaperPin.

So if you are zeroed at 300, you can hold “air” and make (2) impacts on a 9” plate at 450 in 5 seconds? Is this correct?

This is what I’m getting from a couple different posts. I’m just wanting to make sure.

I’m no faster than anyone else - the comment I made about 5 seconds didn’t mean to imply I’m hiking down a trail, see a deer way off, take off my pack, and shoot twice, although I can see how it might have come across that way. I was imagining being on target, getting a range, then shooting. I’m sorry if it sounded mean spirited. If I can’t say something nicely I’ll try to not say anything at all.

 

[TaperPin]

I litterally don’t mind how you guys want to dial, or how much time it takes. You do you.

 

[tak]

How much better is “custom drag model than using a traditional BC” at 551 yards?

this thread has definitely spiraled since I checked last, but I'll bite. AND I'll admit the difference is surely less than I can shoot. I do believe I've seen at least a 0.1 difference out further, maybe 650-800 yards. In any event, when verifying dope, it has held up over a variety of temperatures and different elevations, so that has at least given me confidence in it. Maybe I shouldn't have said "more accurate."

What's your go to ballistic calculator? Are you using the published BCs, or do you true BCs, or what?

 

[Dobermann]

Dealers choice on starting position and rifle.
I’d like to see it.
@TaperPin has got me interested.

Pretty sure Taperpin can't deliver.

 

[Dobermann]

I’d be real interested in hearing the long range holdovers for other game. Elephants could be measure in 1/3 trunk lengths. I like to imagine holdovers for an exotic like kangaroo is measured in pouch-holds.

No, we use the square of the amplitude of the last height of kangaroo hop divided by the median average of the standard deviation of all of the observed hops to point of engagement.

Works every time ... if I do my part.

 

[Dobermann]

LOL. Must be. That plus general hunting is over in a lot of the west as I watch the snow fly outside while binging on Youtube hunting vids.

Actually ... I take it back. Been away for a few days, and just had to wade through some posts by [edited to keep the peace]. Wow.

You know that when a post starts "I see I've never gotten to see one in person I thought someone told me or I had read somewhere that ..." (yes, that's a direct quote) you're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

There's definitely something going on out there to bring in so many specials. Did 24HC put a pause on new members or something?

 

[BLJ]

That’s the weakest argument I’ve ever heard. In 5 seconds after ranging Ill have two shots off. lol

I’m no faster than anyone else - the comment I made about 5 seconds didn’t mean to imply I’m hiking down a trail, see a deer way off, take off my pack, and shoot twice, although I can see how it might have come across that way. I was imagining being on target, getting a range, then shooting. I’m sorry if it sounded mean spirited. If I can’t say something nicely I’ll try to not say anything at all.

I didn’t take it all as mean spirited. Not in the slightest.

What I took from the previous post that was after ranging you could get off (2) shots in (5) seconds.

Then you said that if you had a 300 yard zero, all you had to do was hold a “plate high” (in reference to the 9” plate mentioned earlier in the post) to make a hit on a 9” plate at 450.

I was just asking if you thought you could make (2) shots on a 9” plate at 450 by just “holding air” in 5 seconds?

So if I have understood you correctly and you can do this, IMO that’s quite impressive. For sure.

 

[Formidilosus]

this thread has definitely spiraled since I checked last, but I'll bite. AND I'll admit the difference is surely less than I can shoot. I do believe I've seen at least a 0.1 difference out further, maybe 650-800 yards.

The difference between a custom drag curve and a legit G1 bc isn’t even close to .1 mil at 650 yards. It might, be .1 mil at 900+ with most setups, probably not.

I’m any case, at terminal ranges of bullets it is nearly immaterial and certainly not a big deal.

What's your go to ballistic calculator? Are you using the published BCs, or do you true BCs, or what?

I use them all, with G1, G7, CDM, 4dof, etc. I will take simple and clean over convoluted and complicated. Inside terminal ranges of bullets, a legit G1 BC and true for velocity is what I do most of the time.

 

[tak]

The difference between a custom drag curve and a legit G1 bc isn’t even close to .1 mil at 650 yards. It might, be .1 mil at 900+ with most setups, probably not.

I’m any case, at terminal ranges of bullets it is nearly immaterial and certainly not a big deal.







I use them all, with G1, G7, CDM, 4dof, etc. I will take simple and clean over convoluted and complicated. Inside terminal ranges of bullets, a legit G1 BC and true for velocity is what I do most of the time.

mine seems to be showing a 0.1 difference at 725 yards. The difference between g1 and g7 is crazy small, though. 0.01, much smaller than I expected. This is for 140 ELDMs at 2750, revic app.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Will you adjust your velocity even if you already had a solid average on a really good chrono/radar?

 

[Formidilosus]

mine seems to be showing a 0.1 difference at 725 yards. The difference between g1 and g7 is crazy small, though. 0.01, much smaller than I expected. This is for 140 ELDMs at 2750, revic app.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Will you adjust your velocity even if you already had a solid average on a really good chrono/radar?

Yes. I don’t usually chrono anymore. A known rifle with a known scope shooting 20-30 shots over a chrono, with a legit high round count zero- the data will be correct. The same can be said for a known rifle, known scope, shooting a legit high round count zero, and shooting 10-20 shots at transonic to velocity true. The data comes out to the same.

 

[ddowning]

I started typing the below response earlier on the crapper. Then I decided to go back and read the responses. Some people are delusional. The quoted times on some of the responses are the slowest one one thousands anyone has ever counted. Kentucky windage can work on large targets with a fair amount of time. Even when I used a duplex reticle I knew the subtension from center to the point of the thick post starting was 2.5 moa in my scope, so I technically wasn't just guessing. Even with a Christmas tree reticle in a scope designed for PRS shooting I am slower and less accurate than when I dial elevation and hold wind in the reticle.

To put time in perspective, there is a stage that comes up sometimes in prs matches. You are allowed to be holding the gun and rear bag. The bipod legs are already deployed to the propper height. You start standing. The dope is dialed or you can hold if you choose, but you know the range, elevation, and wind call before the clock starts. The target is 12" at 300 yards, par time is 30 seconds, 10 rounds. I can normally clean the stage with 1-3 seconds left. That is during the shooting season when I am shooting 200-1000 rounds/week and dry firing 4-7 days per week. If you asked me to do it today, I don't think I could make the time. If you made it a 9" target at 450 yards there will be a lot less cleans (barely anyone can clean it anyway.) The fastest guys running gas guns are insanely fast, but the true number of guys that can do what Form is talking about is miniscule.

Getting into the weeds on the science is not necessary to shoot 2 moa targets at 1000 yards. Thinking it is required to hit a deer in the vitals at 450 is insane. Most misses are caused by wind and poor shooting fundamentals, not errors in dope. Even temperature and pressure have little effect until 500 or 600 yards unless the change is drastic.

Aero jump in most calculators is a flourish based on a constant that was derived from a 168 Matchking at 308 velocities. It is the same with spin drift. Not many of us are shooting that anymore. A better constant for modern stuff for AJ is one click per roughly 10 mph. Unless you are shooting in a hurricane, that will get you close enough. It is also the same (from an angular standpoint) at all distances. Spin drift is roughly 1%-1.5% of drop. Can't even dial it out until you have dialed on roughly 40 moa or 10 mils.

In defense of the guy talking about shooting Kentucky windage, I did quite well with that out to 500 yards with a 22/250 on coyotes. I definitely needed a rangefinder. I also missed more than I do now. I also sucked when the wind was blowing very much. The system I use today after a LOT more shooting and learning is briefly laid out below.

I haven't read all the responses to the thread. Here is the fastest way I have found. #1 It will be a lot easier to be fast if you switch to mils. It is not 100% required. Learn to call wind and make wind holds using what is called the bc method or the mph gun method (they are the same method). You'll have to search a bit for applying it to an moa scope, but it can be done. Mark your turret with silver sharpie every 25 yards. When conditions change enough to warrant a turret change, you can erase and change it. If you do not wish to mark directly on your turret with sharpie, put a piece of clear tape over it and mark that.

I have used the above method to shoot to 1000+ yards in NRL Hunter matches with a 6.5 Creedmoor and 140 Hornady BTHP. You simply range, dial the distance, and shoot. When hunting, I always keep an eye on the wind and have a rough wind call in my mind. Then, when an animal presents itself, you can shoot quickly. I have not written a wind call on a dope card in over 3 years in PRS or NRL Hunter matches.