Best bear defense ammo? & New Hornady Backcountry Defense/DGH?

[Harvey_NW]

Kind of a 2 part question that I hope will be informative for others as well (I looked through past posts and couldn't find anything other than hard cast because the MFG said it's best). Per the knowledge dumps of fact backed info on here, I'm slowly transitioning to more shootable platforms in all aspects and trying to learn more about the most effective delivery from each. In this situation I'm considering swapping the 10mm for a 9mm sidearm, with Grizzlies being reintroduced to the Cascades I'd really like to be outfitted as well as possible.

@Formidilosus in your last feature on the Backcountry Hunt Podcast you discussed sidearm ammo, you explained the differences in construction and how they work, but (IIRC) didn't have a specific suggestion. I understand you have to watch what you say on certain platforms, but from a bullet construction/terminal performance standpoint, do you have a recommendation for 9mm bear defense ammo?

Hornady Backcountry Defense ammo with DGH (Dangerous Game Handgun - 138gr 9mm) - in the podcast they mention it's a cannelured jacket with an interlock ring, and the front of the jacket is cupped back into the lead core. They say they intentionally designed it to NOT expand frontal diameter or fragment, and seem to be solely focused on penetration ("being measuind in feet, not inches"), which I feel negates a bit of the potential performance. They mention that they basically jacketed a hard cast for lead dust and fouling reasons. Do you guys think this design concept actually offers an advantage for terminal performance, or is it just a marketing niche?

 

[Formidilosus]

Kind of a 2 part question that I hope will be informative for others as well (I looked through past posts and couldn't find anything other than hard cast because the MFG said it's best). Per the knowledge dumps of fact backed info on here, I'm slowly transitioning to more shootable platforms in all aspects and trying to learn more about the most effective delivery from each. In this situation I'm considering swapping the 10mm for a 9mm sidearm, with Grizzlies being reintroduced to the Cascades I'd really like to be outfitted as well as possible.

@Formidilosus in your last feature on the Backcountry Hunt Podcast you discussed sidearm ammo, you explained the differences in construction and how they work, but (IIRC) didn't have a specific suggestion. I understand you have to watch what you say on certain platforms, but from a bullet construction/terminal performance standpoint, do you have a recommendation for 9mm bear defense ammo?

Two different camps:

1). Penetration above all else. This will mean hard cast flat nose (with sort of the new Hornady DGH).

2). Sufficient penetration (14-18”) to reach the CNS, with a slightly wider wound.


Both are viable, and I am comfortable with both. The main drawback to the readily available hard cast 9mm such at the BB 147gr, is that they are all +P loaded- a lot more recoil, muzzle flip, and snap. That gets 30-40 inches of penetration, but at a shootability cost. Conversely, the good FBI barrier blind duty ammo recoils noticeably less, penetrates straight line, but is in that 15-20 inch penetration range.

For me personally, I don’t change anything when around bears from normal carry. Everything I use is good barrier blind loads- generally 147gr Speer Goldot and G2 for 9mm, and the same for 45 auto in 230gr as well as Federal Hydra-Shok Deep 230gr.

Hornady Backcountry Defense ammo with DGH (Dangerous Game Handgun - 138gr 9mm) - in the podcast they mention it's a cannelured jacket with an interlock ring, and the front of the jacket is cupped back into the lead core. They say they intentionally designed it to NOT expand frontal diameter or fragment, and seem to be solely focused on penetration ("being measuind in feet, not inches"), which I feel negates a bit of the potential performance. They mention that they basically jacketed a hard cast for lead dust and fouling reasons. Do you guys think this design concept actually offers an advantage for terminal performance, or is it just a marketing niche?

It does what they say. Not quite as deep penetrating as say BB’s 147gr Hard cast, but it does fine.

 

[Thegman]

Do you guys think this design concept actually offers an advantage for terminal performance, or is it just a marketing niche?

I'm sure it works fine, but probably more of the latter.

FWIW, the cheap Federal FMJ 147 FP penetrates as well or better than any of the 147 hardcast bullets I've loaded. I just use those now. Can use most of the hardcast bullets I have for practice over time.

 

[Formidilosus]

I'm sure it works fine, but probably more of the latter.

FWIW, the cheap Federal FMJ 147 FP penetrates as well or better than any of the 147 hardcast bullets I've loaded. I just use those now. Can use most of the hardcast bullets I have for practice over time.View attachment 794824

Is the base exposed?

 

[Thegman]

Is the base exposed?

Good question. I don't recall for sure, but I don't think it's exposed. I might have kept a few. I'll check.

The base -is- exposed. These are some examples. All of these were shot into stacked 2x6s. Not sure how they'd differ penetration wise in an animal, but from my past experience, probably wouldn't be too different.

 

[Formidilosus]

Good question. I don't recall for sure, but I don't think it's exposed. I might have kept a few. I'll check.

The issue with almost all FMJ’s that I have seen is that they either skip off of hard objects too often (skull), and/or the lead gets squirted out the back when something hard is hit. Soft tissue penetration is often very deep, but straight line penetration against barriers is usually poor.

 

[Thegman]

The issue with almost all FMJ’s that I have seen is that they either skip off of hard objects too often (skull), and/or the lead gets squirted out the back when something hard is hit. Soft tissue penetration is often very deep, but straight line penetration against barriers is usually poor.

Those are probably good points. They're pretty hard, so I can imagine they might deflect more easily if hitting something hard at an angle, relative to a hardcast, which I imagine might conform to the shape better and continue through. Probably won't ever need them, but if I do, hopefully they'll do fine on my center-of-mass panic shooting.

 

[Formidilosus]

Those are probably good points. They're pretty hard, so I can imagine they might deflect more easily if hitting something hard at an angle, relative to a hardcast, which I imagine might conform to the shape better and continue through. Probably won't ever need them, but if I do, hopefully they'll do fine on my center-of-mass panic shooting.

I wasn’t saying they won’t work- they will.

 

[Thegman]

Speaking of bullets skipping off a hard object...

A couple of guys in another party had to shoot and kill a charging brown bear when I was on Kodiak. He was telling me about it that evening.

He said his first shot was with his scope cover still on. Said he hit it in the head and the bear "stopped like it hit a brick wall". Then three more shots from him and his buddy.

He said the first shot seemed to have glanced off its skull. He was shooting a 30-06. I asked what bullet and he didn't know. Said, "I don't know, Hornady 180 something". I guess either SSTs or Interlocks.

Anyway, I guess bullets skipping off a bear's skull can be a real thing...but apparently they don't like it much.

 

[Formidilosus]

Anyway, I guess bullets skipping off a bear's skull can be a real thing...but apparently they don't like it much.

It’s very common, and from my relatively limited experience, things tend to stop when they get smacked in the head.

Skulls are designed to glance blows off of it. A sharp leading edge on the bullet profile helps greatly (true full wad cutter), and a rounded ogive hurts.

Bowling pin shoots used to be a big thing, and bullets were specifically designed and engineered to “bite” into them on edge hits instead of glancing off.

The one on the left works well and feeds from semi-autos:

 

[Harvey_NW]

It’s very common, and from my relatively limited experience, things tend to stop when they get smacked in the head.

Skulls are designed to glance blows off of it. A sharp leading edge on the bullet profile helps greatly (true full wad cutter), and a rounded ogive hurts.

Bowling pin shoots used to be a big thing, and bullets were specifically designed and engineered to “bite” into them on edge hits instead of glancing off.

I figured the front of the jacket being cupped back into the lead with an edge on the DGH might be designed with that intent. I like the idea of the Speer Gold Dot stuff being sufficient with a little more damage, thanks!

 

[brolo]

Speaking of bullets skipping off a hard object...

A couple of guys in another party had to shoot and kill a charging brown bear when I was on Kodiak. He was telling me about it that evening.

He said his first shot was with his scope cover still on. Said he hit it in the head and the bear "stopped like it hit a brick wall". Then three more shots from him and his buddy.

He said the first shot seemed to have glanced off its skull. He was shooting a 30-06. I asked what bullet and he didn't know. Said, "I don't know, Hornady 180 something". I guess either SSTs or Interlocks.

Anyway, I guess bullets skipping off a bear's skull can be a real thing...but apparently they don't like it much.

I’ve seen photo evidence of the exact same thing. Folks in central AK got attacked by a brown bear, first round from a 30-06 glanced of its skull dead center above the eyes.

 

[Thegman]

I’ve seen photo evidence of the exact same thing. Folks in central AK got attacked by a brown bear, first round from a 30-06 glanced of its skull dead center above the eyes.

Interesting. When did that happen? Maybe the same bear?

This is that bear's skull. I took a couple of pics the next morning before we headed out. This was this year, October 30th. Probably about an 8' fairly mature boar. From his story, it sounded like it might have been shot right where my buddy shot a buck a couple days earlier. Might have been protecting that area (?).

 

[brolo]

I wasn’t there, but I got the pictures and heard the story from a mutual friend. I think it happened 2-3 yrs ago off the Richardson Highway.

 

[Tod osier]

Kind of a 2 part question that I hope will be informative for others as well (I looked through past posts and couldn't find anything other than hard cast because the MFG said it's best). Per the knowledge dumps of fact backed info on here, I'm slowly transitioning to more shootable platforms in all aspects and trying to learn more about the most effective delivery from each. In this situation I'm considering swapping the 10mm for a 9mm sidearm, with Grizzlies being reintroduced to the Cascades I'd really like to be outfitted as well as possible.

@Formidilosus in your last feature on the Backcountry Hunt Podcast you discussed sidearm ammo, you explained the differences in construction and how they work, but (IIRC) didn't have a specific suggestion. I understand you have to watch what you say on certain platforms, but from a bullet construction/terminal performance standpoint, do you have a recommendation for 9mm bear defense ammo?

Hornady Backcountry Defense ammo with DGH (Dangerous Game Handgun - 138gr 9mm) - in the podcast they mention it's a cannelured jacket with an interlock ring, and the front of the jacket is cupped back into the lead core. They say they intentionally designed it to NOT expand frontal diameter or fragment, and seem to be solely focused on penetration ("being measuind in feet, not inches"), which I feel negates a bit of the potential performance. They mention that they basically jacketed a hard cast for lead dust and fouling reasons. Do you guys think this design concept actually offers an advantage for terminal performance, or is it just a marketing niche?

Wouldn't that new hornady bullet with a round nose be similar to the FMJs that are rounded off in that that would tend to deflect rather than penetrate on a glancing angle?

 

[Loper]

If penetration is so critical for bear defense rounds, I’ve been curious why a pistol round designed specifically for bear defense doesn’t use a spritzer bullet. I would assume it not only would increase penetration but also reduce the chance of the bullet skipping off the skull.

 

[Formidilosus]

If penetration is so critical for bear defense rounds, I’ve been curious why a pistol round designed specifically for bear defense doesn’t use a spritzer bullet. I would assume it not only would increase penetration but also reduce the chance of the bullet skipping off the skull.

No. True flat nose, sharp edged bullets such as full wadcutters deflect less than any other type of projectile.

 

[Thegman]

If penetration is so critical for bear defense rounds, I’ve been curious why a pistol round designed specifically for bear defense doesn’t use a spritzer bullet. I would assume it not only would increase penetration but also reduce the chance of the bullet skipping off the skull.

That 30-06 bullet I mentioned was some sort of spitzer. One at least apparently deflected off a skull.

 

[Koda_]

Kind of a 2 part question that I hope will be informative for others as well (I looked through past posts and couldn't find anything other than hard cast because the MFG said it's best). Per the knowledge dumps of fact backed info on here, I'm slowly transitioning to more shootable platforms in all aspects and trying to learn more about the most effective delivery from each. In this situation I'm considering swapping the 10mm for a 9mm sidearm, with Grizzlies being reintroduced to the Cascades I'd really like to be outfitted as well as possible.

Its going to be subjective for everyone, definitely shoot what you shoot the best. To me the 10 is manageable, and in all the videos I watch comparing the 10 to other (semi auto) calibers it always does "a little bit" more damage to the various tests, surprisingly not by a large margin. But the tradeoff though is the smaller calibers tested, specifically the 9mm are often using "hyper" boutique ammo pushing the limits of the cartridge design, thus, negating that controllability advantage (and potentially hard on some gun designs). Another thing Ive noticed in some Paul Harrel (RIP) videos the damage done from just plane ol FMJ in 10, 45, on his famous meat target was impressive enough to consider for bear use.

So a couple of my thoughts, 1) since I find the 10's recoil manageable I will stick with the "little bit more" damage and 2) if one cant find or afford to practice with the expensive boutique ammo good ol cheap FMJ will get the job done.

Here's a good video testing Buffalo Bore 9mm vs Buffalo Bore 10mm bear defense ammo on a ballistic gel bear skull. I queued it up to the bear skull damage test but the whole video offers good insight into the differences between the two loads.

 

[Loper]

No. True flat nose, sharp edged bullets such as full wadcutters deflect less than any other type of projectile.

Got it. What about penetration? Wouldn’t a spritzer bullet have more penetration?