Bear spray / Handgun
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- Start date
aboltlrhunter
Lil-Rokslider
Luckily I haven't had to use either on a bear. But God forbid I do find my self in that situation I'm not gonna trust my life with a can of bear spray. If a bear wants to attack you it's gonna attack you. I'd much rather have a sidearm for that situation IMO.
airlocksniffer
WKR
I'll take bear spray over a gun any day, even in grizzly country. In the extremely unlikely event of attack, you would have very little time to fire off an accurate round. Bear spray can be used from the hip and has such a wider area of coverage. I think carrying a sidearm is more comforting mentally but not the best choice. Not to mention bear spray is much lighter. Here is a link discussing this very topic:
http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2014/bearspray.htm#.VQ28xTXRfBA
http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2014/bearspray.htm#.VQ28xTXRfBA
- Thread Starter
- #4
Thats the info I was looking for, thanks!
westrnwild
WKR
I've sprayed two warning shots of bear spray at bears before. Both times they bolted..both bears were mock charging and clamping their teeth. Both times I was at the bottom of a box canyon...I don't recommend traveling down there anymore...lol. But spray is lighter and is effective.. I even keep it in the house for my wife in case something would happen...
My only caveat...if you ever do spray it...pay attention to the wind afterwards...if its blowing steady back towards you run like hell...otherwise you will see just why the bear runs...it no joke! I know a guy that set one off in a hotel. Talk about a disaster....
My only caveat...if you ever do spray it...pay attention to the wind afterwards...if its blowing steady back towards you run like hell...otherwise you will see just why the bear runs...it no joke! I know a guy that set one off in a hotel. Talk about a disaster....
AXEL
WKR
Ah, yes, the same old, same old, Smith-Herrero stats, which so*many seem to see as a *sermon on the mount*. I laugh every time I see someone giving advice based on there opinions.
I would suggest doing some serious research as to WHO these guys ARE, any business connections to makers of *spray*, on Smiths part and what Parks Canada, said to Herrero, when as an American draftdodger, he came to Canada and immediately became to act as a *Grizzly Expert*.
I knew him, the *partner* in his stump ranch at Hills, BC, whom he mentions in his book, the 1st. Ed., at least, was among the *hippies* as we called them on my first BCFS silviculture crew when I was a young man in the BCFS in 1969 and I have and have read his tome.
I have had about 60 encounters with Grizzlies over my decades of wilderness and rural bush work in BC, three were at 10 ft., two unarmed and one with a Ruger MKI, 7mmRM and the others at various ranges. I have NEVER shot one because I have never wanted to and have been *in at the death of about a dozen* .
Do I carry spray, NO, never and while it does work, SOMETIMES, I used it once on fighting Rottweilers, got it in my eyes and, given the winds in BCs mountains, decided that it was-is not for me.
Handguns, are VERY tightly regulated here in BC, among the most densely populated Grizzly regions on Earth and while I DID carry a Ruger Redhawk, .44M, with my handloads for a couple of 5 month long seasons as a *Lookoutman*, I am NOT one to advise people to do this.
Now, a .44, .45*or .4I will kill a bear, BUT, doing this requires a level of REAL expertise that very few actually have. I WOULD do so, again, IF I had the opportunity to practice at least 3 times per week and with the heavy *bear loads* that one would carry and use.
So, IF I WERE a bowhunter and I have had friends who were P&Y World Record Grizzly, etc.holders, I would choose the handgun, but, I prefer one of the purpose-built CRF carbines in .375H&H and 9.3x62 I have and heavy Nosler Pts.
Hope this is some help, what I do prefer when in Grizzly country is to carry a little airhorn and these are pretty good at scaring bears off, but, a .44 is better if the bear gets *personal*.
BTW, several friends of friends here HAVE been mauled and NOW want to pack a pistol and this should be legal as in much of the US.
I would suggest doing some serious research as to WHO these guys ARE, any business connections to makers of *spray*, on Smiths part and what Parks Canada, said to Herrero, when as an American draftdodger, he came to Canada and immediately became to act as a *Grizzly Expert*.
I knew him, the *partner* in his stump ranch at Hills, BC, whom he mentions in his book, the 1st. Ed., at least, was among the *hippies* as we called them on my first BCFS silviculture crew when I was a young man in the BCFS in 1969 and I have and have read his tome.
I have had about 60 encounters with Grizzlies over my decades of wilderness and rural bush work in BC, three were at 10 ft., two unarmed and one with a Ruger MKI, 7mmRM and the others at various ranges. I have NEVER shot one because I have never wanted to and have been *in at the death of about a dozen* .
Do I carry spray, NO, never and while it does work, SOMETIMES, I used it once on fighting Rottweilers, got it in my eyes and, given the winds in BCs mountains, decided that it was-is not for me.
Handguns, are VERY tightly regulated here in BC, among the most densely populated Grizzly regions on Earth and while I DID carry a Ruger Redhawk, .44M, with my handloads for a couple of 5 month long seasons as a *Lookoutman*, I am NOT one to advise people to do this.
Now, a .44, .45*or .4I will kill a bear, BUT, doing this requires a level of REAL expertise that very few actually have. I WOULD do so, again, IF I had the opportunity to practice at least 3 times per week and with the heavy *bear loads* that one would carry and use.
So, IF I WERE a bowhunter and I have had friends who were P&Y World Record Grizzly, etc.holders, I would choose the handgun, but, I prefer one of the purpose-built CRF carbines in .375H&H and 9.3x62 I have and heavy Nosler Pts.
Hope this is some help, what I do prefer when in Grizzly country is to carry a little airhorn and these are pretty good at scaring bears off, but, a .44 is better if the bear gets *personal*.
BTW, several friends of friends here HAVE been mauled and NOW want to pack a pistol and this should be legal as in much of the US.
AXEL,
I am curious about if you believe the study by Smith/Herrero was flawed in some way, or you just don't like them personally.
It seems the study was peer reviewed, and was just an analysis of available information.
In any case,
As you mentioned, bear spray works in some cases, and so do firearms, in some cases.
I carry spray because it will be easier for me to deploy effectively under stress. I often also carry a firearm, but not for bears particularly.
Choose what you will for protection, but know how to use it, and be sure you are ready to.
EDIT: My comments were in regards to grizzly bears. I don't carry anything for black bears specifically.
I am curious about if you believe the study by Smith/Herrero was flawed in some way, or you just don't like them personally.
It seems the study was peer reviewed, and was just an analysis of available information.
In any case,
As you mentioned, bear spray works in some cases, and so do firearms, in some cases.
I carry spray because it will be easier for me to deploy effectively under stress. I often also carry a firearm, but not for bears particularly.
Choose what you will for protection, but know how to use it, and be sure you are ready to.
EDIT: My comments were in regards to grizzly bears. I don't carry anything for black bears specifically.
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AXEL
WKR
Please do the research I suggest on Smith, his origins, place of employment, connection with business and actual, personal bush experience in Grizzly country; I just find his comments very biased to the *no kill* agenda and this seems obvious to me in the article linked to here.
Steven, was also a customer in my independent bookstore during my time away from wilderness work in the late '70s; I started in the BCFS 50 years ago, this April 15. I liked him, still do, but, I was born and raised, worked and recreated all of my 68+ years in Grizzly country and am a member of an original, pioneer family here.
I was taught as a boy by real mountain men, who settled in the Kootenay wilderness in some cases before 1900 and, frankly, having spent several solo stints sans breaks of 3 months in some of BC's wildest, Grizzly-dense country, from 1967 on, I have some realtime knowledge to base my opinions on.
That said, I am NOT infallible and spray DOES often work, so, do what YOU feel is best, I thunk we agree here.
Steven, was also a customer in my independent bookstore during my time away from wilderness work in the late '70s; I started in the BCFS 50 years ago, this April 15. I liked him, still do, but, I was born and raised, worked and recreated all of my 68+ years in Grizzly country and am a member of an original, pioneer family here.
I was taught as a boy by real mountain men, who settled in the Kootenay wilderness in some cases before 1900 and, frankly, having spent several solo stints sans breaks of 3 months in some of BC's wildest, Grizzly-dense country, from 1967 on, I have some realtime knowledge to base my opinions on.
That said, I am NOT infallible and spray DOES often work, so, do what YOU feel is best, I thunk we agree here.
airlocksniffer
WKR
If you are proficient with your firearm of choice, especially with minimum time to react and maximum stress, it doesn't matter to me if you carry a firearm instead of spray. But research shows that in the event of a charge, most are bluff charges. Would the hunter with the gun freak out at the bluff charge and decide to shoot the bear? Depends how he can handle that kind of situation. I think that at least with the spray, using on a bear during a bluff or real charge will not hurt the bear permanently. I'm not interested in killing a bear if I don't have to. They are just doing what bears do when trying to protect themselves or their young. Bears and other large predators enhance the wilderness experience for me. I think it's pretty cool that there are still places in North America where humans are not at the top of the food chain.
AXEL,
I do think we agree on having an plan and knowing your options in bear country.
I am just pointing out that Smith's history, connections, and personal beliefs don't invalidate the study or its findings. That is what peer review is for: to validate the study's methods.
Full disclosure: I was not trained by mountain men.
I do think we agree on having an plan and knowing your options in bear country.
I am just pointing out that Smith's history, connections, and personal beliefs don't invalidate the study or its findings. That is what peer review is for: to validate the study's methods.
Full disclosure: I was not trained by mountain men.
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AXEL
WKR
I spent some time in bio.studies at a college in the Kootenays, during the period of my life when I worked for the BCFS and BC Fish and Wildlife, (briefly) so am very cognizant of what *peer reviewed* studies are, but, I find Smith's comments as posted here to be agenda oriented.
I know several of the more prominent Grizzly researchers personally and some agree with Herrero and some do not, I tend to be conservative and do as my 62+ years of actual BC-AB-YT-NWT field experience has shown me to work.
BTW, do you know what Parks Canada told Herrero when he asked to conduct his research in our national parks in the Rockies?
Anyway, my point is made, no sense reiterating my opinions, *ad infinitum*; the Parks boffins told him that he did NOT have the field experience with Grizzlies that they felt was appropriate to allow him to get close to the bears, this in 1969.
I know several of the more prominent Grizzly researchers personally and some agree with Herrero and some do not, I tend to be conservative and do as my 62+ years of actual BC-AB-YT-NWT field experience has shown me to work.
BTW, do you know what Parks Canada told Herrero when he asked to conduct his research in our national parks in the Rockies?
Anyway, my point is made, no sense reiterating my opinions, *ad infinitum*; the Parks boffins told him that he did NOT have the field experience with Grizzlies that they felt was appropriate to allow him to get close to the bears, this in 1969.
AXEL,
Perhaps between 1969 and 2006 Herrero picked up some field experience? Really it doesn't matter anyway, since I suppose a statistical examination of documented encounters wouldn't require it.
My interest is not to argue with you or defend Smith and Herrero, but rather to gain some insight into your statement that their conclusions and study were invalid (post #6). I thought maybe you knew of another study that disproved their data and/or conclusions. I would want to read it.
Perhaps between 1969 and 2006 Herrero picked up some field experience? Really it doesn't matter anyway, since I suppose a statistical examination of documented encounters wouldn't require it.
My interest is not to argue with you or defend Smith and Herrero, but rather to gain some insight into your statement that their conclusions and study were invalid (post #6). I thought maybe you knew of another study that disproved their data and/or conclusions. I would want to read it.
I carry spray most of the time since I'm usually Bowhunting. If I've got a rifle I don't carry anything extra. I believe spray would be much easier to deploy in the heat of the moment but I've also done test sprays on new cans and that shit is no joke! I'm convinced that if I ever have to deploy a can on a bear were both in for some pain!
tipsntails7
WKR
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2013
- Messages
- 3,428
I personally HATE bear spray, I've used it once and seen another guy use it. Unfortunately the guy didn't check the wind and it all blew basically right back in his face. The 4 miles back to the truck was probably the shittiest ( funniest for me) time of his life.
For me I carry a sidearm ( when legal) for 2 legged critters much more so then the 4 legged kind. I live in a state with a lot of weird people in it.
But I agree that for most people it is much more practical then trying to use a handgun in a pressure cooker of a situation, most guys don't train enough with their side arm to be proficient at the range, much less with a bear charging you.
For me I carry a sidearm ( when legal) for 2 legged critters much more so then the 4 legged kind. I live in a state with a lot of weird people in it.
But I agree that for most people it is much more practical then trying to use a handgun in a pressure cooker of a situation, most guys don't train enough with their side arm to be proficient at the range, much less with a bear charging you.
SouthPaw
WKR
Know the limits of bear spray (wind), and be very well practiced and proficient with your handgun (heavy loads). As a solo bowhunter I carry both.
aboltlrhunter
Lil-Rokslider
I guess when I'm thinking about situations like this I always try to plan for the worst. What if I get knocked down and the bear is on top of me? Is the spray more effective than a sidearm in that situation? I would think it wouldn't do much good besides spraying its belly and getting in your own face, then your in for a world of hurt. And they don't talk about becoming proficient in deploying the spray. Your body will go into fight or flight mode and you have to practice whatever method you use for self defense. Especially when this guy in this article is talking about deploying it from the hip. Are you willing to buy multiple cans and practice deploying the spray on a routine basis? As you should practice with your side arm as well. And are you willing to keep the can strapped to you in an easy to access location? Backpack belt doesn't count as the pack comes off too much throughout the day. I have a chest pack that holds my sidearm and binos. I barely know it's there.
Stats may show that the spray works very well, which I'm sure is does. I'm not willing risk my life with just having bear spray. And I'm not saying to shoot any bear that comes near you either. Do all you can to try to scare it away. When your life is on the line it just seems silly to have a can of spray for your last line of defense. Just some things to think about.
Trent
Stats may show that the spray works very well, which I'm sure is does. I'm not willing risk my life with just having bear spray. And I'm not saying to shoot any bear that comes near you either. Do all you can to try to scare it away. When your life is on the line it just seems silly to have a can of spray for your last line of defense. Just some things to think about.
Trent
Kevin Dill
WKR
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2014
- Messages
- 3,158
Seems I see 4-6 threads per year on this topic. I've seen guys rip each others' opinions to shreds, and act like the other guy is a fool for not agreeing with him. Everyone has to decide for themselves, and I'm completely convinced there is no BEST choice which applies to everyone. You make your best call and live or die with it if a bear comes in. I have good friends who believe in spray, and one of them sauced a couple blackies a year ago. He watched the results first-hand and described it as very convincing when the bears ran off moaning and shaking their heads. I believe in spray, too. I carry it sometimes, but I don't look at it as being superior to a firearm in all or even most settings for me. When the real money is on the table, I'll usually be found toting a well-stoked handgun or short carbine with dedicated punch.
This is the list which I created, and which led me to decide on a good, reliable firearm in grizzly areas. For black bear encounters I would likely carry spray.
Can haze a threatening bear and possibly stop a charge? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can wound or kill a bear? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can defend before bear is within 20'? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can use during the night in tent? Gun-yes. Spray-not advised.
Can reload after using? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can ignore wind direction when using? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can practice with it? Gun-yes. Spray-does anyone practice?
Can fly it on aircraft? Gun-yes. Spray-not advised.
Can survival hunt with it? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can signal for help with it? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can be used without much practice? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
Can be bought at destination? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
Can be used in residential areas? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
Costs much less to acquire? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
Relies on compressed air? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
Something to think about. If you were injured or otherwise forced to spend a few days in a survival situation in the backcountry; and if you had to immediately choose between a single 12 oz can of pepper spray and a really good gun...which item would you choose?
This is the list which I created, and which led me to decide on a good, reliable firearm in grizzly areas. For black bear encounters I would likely carry spray.
Can haze a threatening bear and possibly stop a charge? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can wound or kill a bear? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can defend before bear is within 20'? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can use during the night in tent? Gun-yes. Spray-not advised.
Can reload after using? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can ignore wind direction when using? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can practice with it? Gun-yes. Spray-does anyone practice?
Can fly it on aircraft? Gun-yes. Spray-not advised.
Can survival hunt with it? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can signal for help with it? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can be used without much practice? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
Can be bought at destination? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
Can be used in residential areas? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
Costs much less to acquire? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
Relies on compressed air? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
Something to think about. If you were injured or otherwise forced to spend a few days in a survival situation in the backcountry; and if you had to immediately choose between a single 12 oz can of pepper spray and a really good gun...which item would you choose?
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charvey9
WKR
I carry a sidearm for piece of mind. I have not encountered a lot of random bears in the woods, but probably because even the ones I do see have turned tail and run off at the first sight, smell, or sound of me.
I did have the opportunity to hunt for bears in Alberta twice last year. In Canada, you can't carry a handgun so all I had was bear spray and my bow. Tons of bears over bait, hunting both from a tree stand and on the ground. They were more or less, used to people, and knew you were there. I had this same bear come in 3 nights in a row, walk straight to my tree, and start to climb the stand. I'd have to holler at him, stomp, and eventually he would go out and eat. One night it was getting dark and he just would not leave the bait. I was yelling at him, throwing sticks, flashing my light. He didn't care. After 15 minutes I made up my mind to just get down out of the tree. The bait was only 13 yards from the base of the tree, and when I touched the ground he stood up on his hind legs. Although I did have my bear spray ready, I kept my light shining in his eyes to blind him as I backed away. It was a tense few moments, but a cool experience.
Fast forward to the next day, and I shot a nice bear in the evening. I waited for the other guys from camp, and we tracked it into a thick patch of brush before deciding to back out for the night. When we came back the next morning and found my bear (it only went about 200 yards), it had been cannibalized by another bear. I was not surprised when the ornery bear from previous nights showed up as we were taking pictures to re-claim his dinner. In the end, we had to cut some guts out of my bear and throw them off to the side just to keep him occupied while we drug the bear out. Here is some video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD0tIxZSSAA
That is the extent of my close encounters with bears. I'm not an expert, but would say bears that are used to people are more dangerous. Every bear I've encountered in the wild has run away. When it comes down to it, I prefer my handgun over bear spray. I carry a S&W 329PD .44 Mag. It is overkill for black bear, but wanted something that would work when I go in Grizzly territory also.
I did have the opportunity to hunt for bears in Alberta twice last year. In Canada, you can't carry a handgun so all I had was bear spray and my bow. Tons of bears over bait, hunting both from a tree stand and on the ground. They were more or less, used to people, and knew you were there. I had this same bear come in 3 nights in a row, walk straight to my tree, and start to climb the stand. I'd have to holler at him, stomp, and eventually he would go out and eat. One night it was getting dark and he just would not leave the bait. I was yelling at him, throwing sticks, flashing my light. He didn't care. After 15 minutes I made up my mind to just get down out of the tree. The bait was only 13 yards from the base of the tree, and when I touched the ground he stood up on his hind legs. Although I did have my bear spray ready, I kept my light shining in his eyes to blind him as I backed away. It was a tense few moments, but a cool experience.
Fast forward to the next day, and I shot a nice bear in the evening. I waited for the other guys from camp, and we tracked it into a thick patch of brush before deciding to back out for the night. When we came back the next morning and found my bear (it only went about 200 yards), it had been cannibalized by another bear. I was not surprised when the ornery bear from previous nights showed up as we were taking pictures to re-claim his dinner. In the end, we had to cut some guts out of my bear and throw them off to the side just to keep him occupied while we drug the bear out. Here is some video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD0tIxZSSAA
That is the extent of my close encounters with bears. I'm not an expert, but would say bears that are used to people are more dangerous. Every bear I've encountered in the wild has run away. When it comes down to it, I prefer my handgun over bear spray. I carry a S&W 329PD .44 Mag. It is overkill for black bear, but wanted something that would work when I go in Grizzly territory also.
Rucker61
WKR
I don't hunt in grizzly territory. I've carried bear spray so far, and haven't seen any bears. I'm leaning towards spray + gun, mainly as an excuse to buy a new gun.
I always wonder if you would have the presence of mind to check the wind in a stressful situation, I always carry for dogs , we have walked in on wolves feeding on elk before. 7 wolves and a 6 shot revolver not good odds but I will take them, some times I carry a 45 with buffalo bore ammo also more for dogs and cats , every bear if have run into in the woods turns and runs very quickly . I did carry spray while bow hunting in Montana, they had 6 bear/hunter problems that year in our area, local good friend of mine recommended it. We were hunting just north of yellowstone.
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