"Basics" in Retriever Training

[AK_Skeeter]

When I see posts about Basics, it is typically procedures:
Force-Fetch, Single-T, Double-T, Multiple Marks, Cheating Singes, Swim-By, etc.

Instead of procedures, I think of the end product:

Line Manners:

1. Will the retriever sit quietly in the kennel with the door open, waiting for a verbal "OK" release?
2. Will the retriever sit quietly in the holding blind with canine-to-human eye contact waiting to be released?
3. Will the retriever heel backwards automatically when the handler steps back while headed to the line?
4. Wlll the retriever sit quietly as the marks are thrown?

Force Fetch:
1) Will the retriever hold the bird with no chomping?
2) Will the retriever spit the bird out when commanded?
3) Will the retriever hold the bird all the way to hand after a water retrieve?

T-work:

1. Will the retriever sit quickly on the whistle with no looping sit?
2. Will the retriever change directions with each cast after a whistle sit?
3. Will the retriever take a cast with the bumper in his mouth?

Wagon Wheel work:

1. Will the retriever target destinations in lining?
2. Will the retriever stay stationary when the handler moves up to push?
3. Will the retriever return immediately to the correct heel position with perfect spinal alignment to the next destination?

Multiple Marks:

1. Will the retriever sit with no movement of anything except for head movement on marks?
2. Will the retriever focus on each mark all the way to the ground until cued by the handler's silent movement to look for the next mark?

Cheating Singles:

1. Will the retriever choose water entry to a mark?
2. Will the retriever choose to swim by a gunner instead of a square exit at the gunner?

Swim-By:
1)Will the retriever tread water waiting and focus on the handler the instant he hears the sit whistle? (Perfect Stall)
2) Will the retriever enter swim-by mode at any new location on return the instant the handler signals with a swim-by cast

Props:

1. Does the retriever ignore decoys in the field?
2. Is the retriever comfortable getting in a boat, a dog blind, a neoprene vest, and other items used in hunting?

 

[Macintosh]

Thats a good overview of what it takes to make a truly finished retriever, but not what Id call the “basics”. Just for sake of starting an argument (), for 99.9% of hunters that I see happily and productively using their retrievers, the basics doesnt include anything more than a dog that’ll return on command, hang out in a blind or boat, go get a bird, get back in boat or blind with it more or less intact and without playing chase. Maybe at some point they’ll get into some basic handling, blinds, etc, but I dont think the swim by stuff and the rigid line work, etc is even in the consciousness of most people outside of the hunt test/trial crowd. I’d argue any handling whatsoever, regardless of what the hunt test and trial folks say, is 200-level and up, and maybe even harmful to talk about with someone interested in “the basics” who doesnt even know what that stuff means. And the rest is polish that most people dont give a hoot about and probably only matters less than a couple % of the time.

By that measure Id say the basics and end goal of MOST hunters is
-basic obedience, socializing, familiarity with boats and other stuff they'll encounter.
-Collar conditioning if they’ll use electronics
-solid work up to and conditioning around gunfire
-bird intro
-Your line manners 1, 2a (but not 2b) and 4
-force fetch or a trained hold at a minimum, probably close enough to be same/same
-basic marking and lining, maybe force to a pile for consecutive retrieves.
-to me, any real blind retrieves or remote handling are likely to be a next step and come as someone gets into the next stage after the basics.

Obviously setting up for future training so a dog doesnt have to unlearn the last step in order to progress, is very helpful. You clearly have a very finished view of retriever training, so with my above perspective out there, do you have guidance on what should make up the first stage of training for a new handler who has no intention if ever participating in a hunt test or trial? Call it the roadmap from may 5th when they pick up their new 9 week old puppy having never owned a dog before, to october 1st when their hunting season opens and they’ve only ever hunted with their friends half-trained dogs. What should their goal be for that first season, and what does that training roadmap look like? What is the second season goal likely to be, what does that look like, and what are the things they ought to keep in mind during season 1 that will set them up most easily for season 2?

 

[KurtR]

I would say find a program and follow it be it lardy ,Freddy king ,Danny farmer ,Pat burns or pat Nolan .Train as you are going to run trials/tests and you will a dog that is a true joy to hunt with.

basics are basics it does not change if you want an open dog or just a meat dog.

 

[Macintosh]

basics are basics it does not change if you want an open dog or just a meat dog.

Do you think all of the above are “basics”? Agree that if you aim for the bottom you’ll hit it…my question is less so about methodology than it is about end goal. if a new trainer (I dont think anyone interested in “the basics” is anything other than a new trainer) should have all of the above as goals as they figure out what “the basics” means. What does “the basics” mean to you? Seems to me perfectly OK to aim for being proficient at chapters 1 and 2 (“the basics” of whatever program you are following) and only then seeing where you are and if you have any interest in pursuing chapters 3 and 4. Aiming for chapter 4 from the beginning seems a bridge too far and overwhelmingly much for a lot of people, seems like a recipe for either giving up before you start, or almost inevitable “failure” for stopping before the end goal, even if where you get to is pretty highly functional and would be considered a triumph by most people. Thoughts?

 

[AK_Skeeter]

Do you think all of the above are “basics”? Agree that if you aim for the bottom you’ll hit it…my question is less so about methodology than it is about end goal. if a new trainer (I dont think anyone interested in “the basics” is anything other than a new trainer) should have all of the above as goals as they figure out what “the basics” means. What does “the basics” mean to you? Seems to me perfectly OK to aim for being proficient at chapters 1 and 2 (“the basics” of whatever program you are following) and only then seeing where you are and if you have any interest in pursuing chapters 3 and 4. Aiming for chapter 4 from the beginning seems a bridge too far and overwhelmingly much for a lot of people, seems like a recipe for either giving up before you start, or almost inevitable “failure” for stopping before the end goal, even if where you get to is pretty highly functional and would be considered a triumph by most people. Thoughts?

"anyone interested in “the basics” is anything other than a new trainer",
Most of the dogs that are weak in advanced hunt tests (Master Hunter) or all-age field trials that I see are weak because of inadequate basics.
For example:
A dog that does not "sit and salute" but instead has a big, loopy sit on the whistle will be at a disadvantage in keyhole or down the shore blinds.
A dog that head-swings will be at a disadvantage in multiple marks.

Basics are important even for meat dogs.
A dog that creeps and breaks will not be welcome in many duck blinds.
A dog that ignores the whistle and chases a hen pheasant into the next county will not be a great upland hunter.

Basics are important at many levels.

 

[Macintosh]

Copy, and agree, thats precisely what I meant by “setting up for future training so a dog doesnt have to unlearn the last step in order to progress”. My question was not about being somewhat precise when training the basics, it was what actually makes up the basics—the initial list is a lot more than I would have said. If we’re talking about hunt tests I would have said that basic skills are what is required to nail a legit JH level test. SH is getting into the intermediate and advanced stuff, and mh is the trickiest, most refined level of advanced skills with situations designed to test specific pitfalls and shortcomings.
I’m really wondering if you consider every inch of what you wrote in the original post to be “basic” skills as I understood that post to say, or if what you are saying is that demanding a level of refinement on the basic training is setting yourself up for success as you get into the advanced elements, which is those more advanced topics that you covered—if so that was not clear to me.

 

[KurtR]

Do you think all of the above are “basics”? Agree that if you aim for the bottom you’ll hit it…my question is less so about methodology than it is about end goal. if a new trainer (I dont think anyone interested in “the basics” is anything other than a new trainer) should have all of the above as goals as they figure out what “the basics” means. What does “the basics” mean to you? Seems to me perfectly OK to aim for being proficient at chapters 1 and 2 (“the basics” of whatever program you are following) and only then seeing where you are and if you have any interest in pursuing chapters 3 and 4. Aiming for chapter 4 from the beginning seems a bridge too far and overwhelmingly much for a lot of people, seems like a recipe for either giving up before you start, or almost inevitable “failure” for stopping before the end goal, even if where you get to is pretty highly functional and would be considered a triumph by most people. Thoughts?

Failure is not following the program and jumping ahead. There is so much information at everyone’s finger tips. I live 200 miles from my training group have trained almost exclusively by my self with nothing but asking questions and following a program . I have also dug some holes but figuring that out is part of dog training. Now I have a dog that is a hrch passed 3/4 master tests and plan to run the grand.

So yes I believe how he laid it is basics the time table depends on the dog. It’s not over whelming because you’re not worried about anything other than where you are . It all starts with three things. Sit come go.

People run tests to early and hunt dogs way to early create bad habits because they don’t get the basics bomb proof as pat burns would say.

30 minutes a day will get you a dog better than most people have ever seen

 

[Macintosh]

Guess we need to sit and drink beer and chat in person, I think I must not be asking my question right. Appreciate you guys trying.

 

[Rich M]

Id like a dog that heels on command, waits to be told to fetch, and comes back immediately if called. Most dogs dont behave well enough to fo this.

 

[AK_Skeeter]

Failure is not following the program and jumping ahead. There is so much information at everyone’s finger tips. I live 200 miles from my training group have trained almost exclusively by my self with nothing but asking questions and following a program . I have also dug some holes but figuring that out is part of dog training. Now I have a dog that is a hrch passed 3/4 master tests and plan to run the grand.

So yes I believe how he laid it is basics the time table depends on the dog. It’s not over whelming because you’re not worried about anything other than where you are . It all starts with three things. Sit come go.

People run tests to early and hunt dogs way to early create bad habits because they don’t get the basics bomb proof as pat burns would say.

30 minutes a day will get you a dog better than most people have ever seen

YES!

Another point I was trying to make is that a trainer can put a dog through a basics program,
yet have a dog that is "weak in basics". I think sometimes it is because the trainer if focused on the
procedure and not the end results.

For example, take the double-T. A trainer might run the double-T, routinely stopping the dog,
and casting it to the back pile. One of the goals of the double-T is to teach the dog that when
he hears the whistle, he should expect to change direction with the next cast. So routinely stopping the dog,
and casting it to the back pile would be counter-productive in terms of teaching the key concept
of changing directions with each cast.

 

[loganwayne]

30 minutes a day will get you a dog better than most people have ever seen

Doing this with a young dog at feeding time, you can teach them a whole hell of a lot. plus it slows down their food intake, and teaches them to "learn" and "figure out what you want" without telling them.

 

[AK_Skeeter]

Doing this with a young dog at feeding time, you can teach them a whole hell of a lot. plus it slows down their food intake, and teaches them to "learn" and "figure out what you want" without telling them.

YES! With food bowls it is easy to teach push/pull lining, casting, 2-sided sends, backwards heeling, etc.
Most hungry pups are highly motivated when food is involved.

 

[medvedyt]

i think with the time i requested less from my dogs and still have fun but i hunt with less people and other dogs ... i do find with the time that i prefer less constraint and more happy time.

does not stop to hunt but certainly not at the level i was pushing or dreaming to have in the past but the joy of hunting is still there ...

the question to ask is what is the most important for you?

 

[KurtR]

Nothing makes me happier than running a 300 yard blind on a bird no one thought we could find. Shooting is secondary for me to watching the dog run at this point.