Barrel Cleaning…data

[TxLite]

Can you point us to where you found this? Is there a repository somewhere with downloads for the various Hornady Podcast episodes? Not finding one.

I saw it on Reddit but as @prm pointed out, it’s just a simple chart with the data they showed on the podcast. If you watched the video on the podcast they showed the data for the various cartridges

 

[Macintosh]

Just listened to the episodes. I was listening closely for the data. I both heard and and didnt hear it…
Coming into this thread what I THOUGHT I heard was that they use reference ammo periodically to test their pressure-barrels for velocity/pressure to make sure they are still in condition to be used for testing…and that the CLEANING recommendations were averages of all their barrels for number of rounds fired before the barrel showed the reference ammo was outside the allowed parameters and cleaning brought it back inside spec…and the barrel lifetime rec’s were when cleaning DIDNT bring it back to within spec. I recall they rattled off some general numbers about how wide a range of pressure/velocity was allowed, so my impression was that they covered this in a very general sense and presented their results, but not a detailed explanation of the methodology. The key thing missing is what those allowed parameters are, and where those tolerances put you on the scale between “non-issue” and “catastophic failure”. Reading the posts here I am still left with this impression, but Im not certain I didnt read between the lines more than was actually presented?

Anyway, after reading this thread Im not so sure now. I’d like for one of the hornady crew to provide a more explicit explanation of the exact methodology used to arrive at the numbers they presented, and what the real-world impact of stepping just outside those tolerances is.

Also relevent, perhaps very much so— @formidalosus post 114 references chamber and barrel specs being a culprit in pressure issues, which are exactly the same things they said would amplify pressure issues. They specifically called out cartridges with looser specs as being much more forgiving of issues. I have the sense that their criteria is based on worst case chamber/barrel specs as a cya mechanism knowing that their ammo is going to get shot thru lots of examples like that. So in essence, their recommendations would apply to exactly those barrels form is recommending against, for exactly the reason form is recommending against them…if anything that is something perhaps at least directionally in agreement.

 

[HighUintas]

Just listened to the episodes. I was listening closely for the data. I both heard and and didnt hear it…
Coming into this thread what I THOUGHT I heard was that they use reference ammo periodically to test their pressure-barrels for velocity/pressure to make sure they are still in condition to be used for testing…and that the CLEANING recommendations were averages of all their barrels for number of rounds fired before the barrel showed the reference ammo was outside the allowed parameters and cleaning brought it back inside spec…and the barrel lifetime rec’s were when cleaning DIDNT bring it back to within spec. I recall they rattled off some general numbers about how wide a range of pressure/velocity was allowed, so my impression was that they covered this in a very general sense and presented their results, but not a detailed explanation of the methodology. The key thing missing is what those allowed parameters are, and where those tolerances put you on the scale between “non-issue” and “catastophic failure”. Reading the posts here I am still left with this impression, but Im not certain I didnt read between the lines more than was actually presented?

Anyway, after reading this thread Im not so sure now. I’d like for one of the hornady crew to provide a more explicit explanation of the exact methodology used to arrive at the numbers they presented, and what the real-world impact of stepping just outside those tolerances is.

Also relevent, perhaps very much so— @formidalosus post 114 references chamber and barrel specs being a culprit in pressure issues, which are exactly the same things they said would amplify pressure issues. They specifically called out cartridges with looser specs as being much more forgiving of issues. I have the sense that their criteria is based on worst case chamber/barrel specs as a cya mechanism knowing that their ammo is going to get shot thru lots of examples like that. So in essence, their recommendations would apply to exactly those barrels form is recommending against, for exactly the reason form is recommending against them…if anything that is something perhaps at least directionally in agreement.

They have stayed in previous episodes that their test barrels are absolute min spec so that they're testing their ammo in worst case scenarios.

Also, I remember them mentioning some of what you said in previous episodes, such as periodically shooting reference ammo, but I don't remember them mentioning what their spec is for pressure/velocity on that reference or that they call a barrel dead when cleaning won't fix the issue.

I'll go back and listen to those closely

 

[Marbles]

Now you get to quote it- bullshit. There is no amount of “carbon build up” that is stopping a bullet in a bore. If that happened, then it was a squib- again, not unheard of with Hornady pistol ammo. That part right there- if- that is what was stated makes my questioning about why there wasn’t data, absolutely correct.

But of course they also stated in a podcast that not cleaning AR15’s for a thousand rounds will have the bolt breaking into pieces.Imexed things up.

I mixed things up a little (discussed further below). What I was thinking of is chambering a round, not firing it, then extracting the case without the bullet.

I also realized, you acknowledge pressure increases without cleaning. You even advocate doing something about it, just that something isn't cleaning.

He said that in episode 2 around the 33:00 minute mark. He was doing some extreme testing when the bullet got stuck. He didn’t mention that it was a round count thing. It was likely a low pressure test.

Thanks, helped me straighten out my memory, I was combining that and episode 1 starting at 43 minutes.

I can’t quite grasp why more people cannot think for themselves. Sure, use Forms large dataset and experience to not clean your barrel.. or start at Hornadys if you like.
Just pay F’n attention to what your rifle is telling you. It’s not going to all of a sudden go from perfectly safe to blowing up in your face. If there’s pressure signs, do something about it.

I agree with this. I trust Hornady's data set over @Formidilosus because until a few days ago, the impression I got from following his no cleaning recommendation was that one COULD NOT have a problem from not cleaning. Then, I listened to the podcast and though, hmm. Then I realized that he has advocated down loading as fowling builds up in the past, meaning he acknowledges that it can cause an issue. Then that made me wonder, was my Tikka 223 suddenly blowing primers on a know fine load that was not above book max and safe per Gordons Reloading tool really because I was just loading too hot and twice fired case heads had been work hardened enough to hide it vs once fired, or was it because I had put several hundred practice rounds down the barrel since I had last shot it? Loading a 223 with N150 it is not physically possible I over charged it. I cannot prove it either way, but have to wonder. Hell, I followed all his recommendations below. Must be a Tikka problem, the mandrel shrunk (well, to be honest, while I doubt it, I don't know enough about cold hammer forging to say that is impossible). Round was feeding from a factory Tikka mag.

That then begs the question, how do I know if a barrel spec is good or not, making it safe to never clean or not safe to never clean?

Yes, I have seen pressure with some guns- of course. Whether it’s from a “carbon ring” or not I cannot say. I don’t own a bore scope and I don’t care what it looks like- I care how it shoots.

Pressure problems have all been related to getting cute with the barrel, chamber, or loads. Most commonly it has been a brand new barrel, bullets seated into or very close to the lands, “working up to pressure” ( which means way over pressure), then fouling happens and what was right in the edge of “ok”, becomes not ok. The standard answer is to clean- but that isn’t fixing the underlying disease that is causing the symptoms.

Get 100’ish rounds on a barrel without cleaning using mild loads before you start “working up to pressure” with hand loads, stay at or under book max loads, keep the bullet well of the lands and throat, and do not use a “tight chamber”.


Do those things and barrels will go their whole lives with zero issues.





I do not own a cleaning rod. No one that I work or shoot with owns one either. We have take down rods for use in an emergency- broken extractor or stock case (that has never been needed).

One example above, not cute with the chamber, not cute with the load, FL resizing, load was developed with over 1000 rounds on the barrel, just cute with not cleaning and dumb enough to assume the explanation had to be something else at the time, so did not pursue better diagnostics.

 

[prm]

They stated the cleaning was due to reference ammo going outside their inclusion zone (psi, velocity, dispersion). I would like to see a breakout of exceeding a performance spec (dispersion, SD, psi increase less than any danger concern) verses exceeding a pressure that they consider dangerous.

 

[Ryan Avery]

This Tikka .223 has over 20,000 rounds—handloads, factory, mild, and hot. I've never cleaned the barrel. I never lost a primer. I guess I'm lucky. I've also been fortunate with 300 ultras 6UMs and a gaggle of other rifles that I don't clean but shoot till they're dead.


I haven't cleaned a barrel since I left the Army.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Marbles]

This Tikka .223 has over 20,000 rounds—handloads, factory, mild, and hot. I've never cleaned the barrel. I never lost a primer. I guess I'm lucky. I've also been fortunate with 300 ultras 6UMs and a gaggle of other rifles that I don't clean but shoot till they're dead.


I haven't cleaned a barrel since I left the Army.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Seriously, that is awesome. I seriously think it is more like I am unlucky than you are lucky.

I was raised by a helicopter pilot. Fixed wing pilots are happy go lucky and expect things to go there way because their ship wants to stay in the air. Helicopter pilots are cynical bastards who expect everything to go wrong because their craft beats nature into submission and wants to fall out of the sky. I never said others need to clean, I've learned to be happy for the fixed wing mindset guys, it makes for a happier life most of the time. I've still been trained to be a cynical bastard by a cynical bastard from earlier than I can remember, my expectation that Murphy lives in every piece of gear I have isn't going to change. That doesn't mean everyone else has to be miserable with me.

 

[Bowfinn]

Thanks, helped me straighten out my memory, I was combining that and episode 1 starting at 43 minutes.

I got lucky and happened to jump right to it. I didn’t remember the reason why the bullet was stuck and was looking back for that reason. I don’t know why I couldn’t remember the scenario it was only a year ago.

 

[HighUintas]

@Marbles , I have noticed with a certain wildcat Tikka I have that I'll get pressure signs (bolt lift and ejector swipe) after 3--4 reloads of a warm load even if I scrub it to bare metal, when those first 3-4 were completely fine.

I think it is due to the case head/web portion growing. After a certain point, there's not enough room for the web to expand and soak up some of that pressure. I unfortunately didn't meticulously track the speed through those reloads, which would have given further information.

It seems pressure signs can be caused by many things, other than just freebore diameter and carbon buildup.

 

[Marbles]

@Marbles , I have noticed with a certain wildcat Tikka I have that I'll get pressure signs (bolt lift and ejector swipe) after 3--4 reloads of a warm load even if I scrub it to bare metal, when those first 3-4 were completely fine.

I think it is due to the case head/web portion growing. After a certain point, there's not enough room for the web to expand and soak up some of that pressure. I unfortunately didn't meticulously track the speed through those reloads, which would have given further information.

It seems pressure signs can be caused by many things, other than just freebore diameter and carbon buildup.

I agree, but a blown primer can only be caused by pressure (as apposed to increased bolt thrust). I cannot verify it was a dirty barrel, I did not think of it at the time, but it is as likely (or perhaps more likely) an explanation as soft case heads vs work hardened case heads. I trim my brass as about half are out of spec after one firing, so it was not brass being compressed around the bullet from being too long.

I also cannot prove cleaning would have prevented it, but nor can someone else prove it would not have. There is a reason I only said it changed my mind and did not argue that others had to clean.

It is a bad idea, but I'm tempted to recreate that load, see if it still blows primers, then clean and see if it stops blowing primers. If it does not still blow primers, well we are not really any better of. If it does, but does not resolve with light cleaning, then does not resolve with heavy cleaning, then we can say for sure it was not a cleaning issue. If it blows primers, then resolves with cleaning, the question is does it start to blow them again after a while?

The real question is do I want to shoot a load that I expect to blow the primer? How strong do I think the Tikka action is? Do I want to shoot it from my shoulder, us a string and sand bags? While unlikely to be an issue, do I want to risk the rifle, scope, and stock? Yes, I know, I'm a fraidy cat.

My range time is also significantly cut into at present as I pursue other training goals, so how much time do I want to spend dicking around for a single data point.

 

[AZ_Hunter]

I agree, but a blown primer can only be caused by pressure (as apposed to increased bolt thrust). I cannot verify it was a dirty barrel, I did not think of it at the time, but it is as likely (or perhaps more likely) an explanation as soft case heads vs work hardened case heads. I trim my brass as about half are out of spec after one firing, so it was not brass being compressed around the bullet from being too long.

I also cannot prove cleaning would have prevented it, but nor can someone else prove it would not have. There is a reason I only said it changed my mind and did not argue that others had to clean.

It is a bad idea, but I'm tempted to recreate that load, see if it still blows primers, then clean and see if it stops blowing primers. If it does not still blow primers, well we are not really any better of. If it does, but does not resolve with light cleaning, then does not resolve with heavy cleaning, then we can say for sure it was not a cleaning issue. If it blows primers, then resolves with cleaning, the question is does it start to blow them again after a while?

The real question is do I want to shoot a load that I expect to blow the primer? How strong do I think the Tikka action is? Do I want to shoot it from my shoulder, us a string and sand bags? While unlikely to be an issue, do I want to risk the rifle, scope, and stock? Yes, I know, I'm a fraidy cat.

My range time is also significantly cut into at present as I pursue other training goals, so how much time do I want to spend dicking around for a single data point.

Just do it. You’re not going to blow up the gun. The bigger risk is etching your bolt face and firing pin from the gas/plasma exiting out the back. I have wildcatted in the AR system for 15 years and have blown primers more times than I can count.

 

[Formidilosus]

Loading a 223 with N150

@Ryan Avery- do you remember if N150 was the powder that was blowing bolt shrouds and primers three years ago?

 

[Dobermann]

Lot of interesting discussion here, and I don't want to get in the way of it, but as a quick aside / relevant wider context..

I think if people listen to enough episodes, they'll see that some of the Hornady guys will spout stuff that's not evidenced, is outside their swimlane, based on personal preference, and so on.

Personally, I got so tired of the main guy who hosts it doing this - and putting a gauche marketing spin onto even the most generic of content - that I stopped listening a while ago.

To be honest - although possibly not fair - it reminded me of the issues with the Vortex podcast: a lot of a unevidenced, repeated nonsense with a too-heavy dash of self-promotion. Like everyone else, Hornady are much better when they stick to what they actually know - and can back up with evidence.

 

[JGRaider]

After Covtard Steve Hornady's jab mandate, and the melting tip fiasco, I've learned to believe about half of what Hornady has to say about anything. YMMV.

+1 to B Reynolds AK:
"I can’t quite grasp why more people cannot think for themselves. Sure, use Forms large dataset and experience to not clean your barrel.. or start at Hornadys if you like.
Just pay F’n attention to what your rifle is telling you. It’s not going to all of a sudden go from perfectly safe to blowing up in your face. If there’s pressure signs, do something about it."

 

[HighUintas]

I agree, but a blown primer can only be caused by pressure (as apposed to increased bolt thrust). I cannot verify it was a dirty barrel, I did not think of it at the time, but it is as likely (or perhaps more likely) an explanation as soft case heads vs work hardened case heads. I trim my brass as about half are out of spec after one firing, so it was not brass being compressed around the bullet from being too long.

I also cannot prove cleaning would have prevented it, but nor can someone else prove it would not have. There is a reason I only said it changed my mind and did not argue that others had to clean.

It is a bad idea, but I'm tempted to recreate that load, see if it still blows primers, then clean and see if it stops blowing primers. If it does not still blow primers, well we are not really any better of. If it does, but does not resolve with light cleaning, then does not resolve with heavy cleaning, then we can say for sure it was not a cleaning issue. If it blows primers, then resolves with cleaning, the question is does it start to blow them again after a while?

The real question is do I want to shoot a load that I expect to blow the primer? How strong do I think the Tikka action is? Do I want to shoot it from my shoulder, us a string and sand bags? While unlikely to be an issue, do I want to risk the rifle, scope, and stock? Yes, I know, I'm a fraidy cat.

My range time is also significantly cut into at present as I pursue other training goals, so how much time do I want to spend dicking around for a single data point.

That's a good point. I missed the point where you mentioned you blew a primer.

That's would be a good idea to recreate it if you really want to know and learn, but depending on how the primer blows it could damage your firing pin which would be unfortunate. There is the safety issue as well ... I don't know how much of a safety issue blowing primers really is, but as you explained you're raised by a helicopter pilot!

I think it's easier to just back the load down or clean every once in awhile. I have my 6.5cm loaded really modestly.... It might actually recoil less than my 243. It shoots so accurately and with ZERO issues, I don't care if it's on the slow side. Better brass life, no function issues, no weird fliers. I am likely to do the same with my 243

 

[gbflyer]

It takes about 3:00 to stroke a barrel a dozen times with a bronze brush and push 3 patches through. It’s a maintenance item I liken to an oil change. I had a neighbor who ran new pickups to 50K miles and traded them in. Never serviced them. People clamored to get his used rigs, mostly because he was a successful entrepreneur.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

Except it's not an oil change. I just assume barrel scrubbing obsessions are a thing because back when powders were corrosive you had to religiously clean to avoid pitting/corrosion.

It's a thing that's just been passed down.

 

[TaperPin]

I may have spent more time this year reading/listening/writing to cleaning discussions than was spent actually cleaning. Ironic.

 

[Justin Crossley]

Lot of interesting discussion here, and I don't want to get in the way of it, but as a quick aside / relevant wider context..

I think if people listen to enough episodes, they'll see that some of the Hornady guys will spout stuff that's not evidenced, is outside their swimlane, based on personal preference, and so on.

Personally, I got so tired of the main guy who hosts it doing this - and putting a gauche marketing spin onto even the most generic of content - that I stopped listening a while ago.

To be honest - although possibly not fair - it reminded me of the issues with the Vortex podcast: a lot of a unevidenced, repeated nonsense with a too-heavy dash of self-promotion. Like everyone else, Hornady are much better when they stick to what they actually know - and can back up with evidence.

Exactly what I was thinking. The Vortex podcast (like many others) is really hard for me to listen to because they spout so much BS.

 

[Marbles]

Lot of interesting discussion here, and I don't want to get in the way of it, but as a quick aside / relevant wider context..

I think if people listen to enough episodes, they'll see that some of the Hornady guys will spout stuff that's not evidenced, is outside their swimlane, based on personal preference, and so on.

Personally, I got so tired of the main guy who hosts it doing this - and putting a gauche marketing spin onto even the most generic of content - that I stopped listening a while ago.

To be honest - although possibly not fair - it reminded me of the issues with the Vortex podcast: a lot of a unevidenced, repeated nonsense with a too-heavy dash of self-promotion. Like everyone else, Hornady are much better when they stick to what they actually know - and can back up with evidence.

I had unsubscribe early last summer. It is one of those podcasts that has too much fluff and bull to be worth listening to regularly. Never tried the Vortex podcast and not interested.