Barnes TTSX vs. Berger bullets

[PARA1]

I understand BCs SDs but the biggest problem I have with using the berger is that its a fine long range projo and I have killed a lot of deer with them but I also know that there are far better options at 75-175yds when you push it at RUM velocities and beyond, its great at 700 but
my concern is in its performance at 75yds. Case in point last year we had a Wounded Warrior Hunt I let a Kid use my 300win loaded with 190s
he double lunged one or so we thought at maybe 100 standing broadside projo hit a rib took out 1 lung and fragmented so bad that we were finding frag under the skin in the neck the opposite side lung was undamaged as far as we could tell and that was a white tail.

 

[Ryan Avery]

This is a long range forum! The OP asked about 400-700 yards shots. If you can't help with that then don't post or start a thread in the firearms section.

 

[WestDan]

Unfortunately I don't have a picture because I ended up covering the flash, but I shot a deer last year at 386 yards (not that long range I know) with 180gr Barnes ttsx out of a 300wm. I ended up shooting twice because the buck didn't move after the first shot and hit him twice in the crease. When I got closer he wasn't even fully dead to my disbelief and I shot him again. When I inspected the wound channels, the first two shots hit the buck right in the lungs but didn't create much of a channel at all and exited out of the ribs on the opposite side. The Third shot broke the front shoulder and exiting out of the ribs which likely created enough damage to end it more quickly. I was pretty shocked at the lack of knock down power and if I ever use the ttsx again (unlikely), I would be sure to hit the front shoulder (but that ruins a bunch of meat as well). I have yet to try the Barnes LRX which is on my list and may solve the issue, but pretty hard to go away from the Berger. Will be using up my 210 VLDs this year before opening the 215 hybrid boxes for my 300wm.

 

[PARA1]

This is a long range forum! The OP asked about 400-700 yards shots. If you can't help with that then don't post or start a thread in the firearms section.

My apologies there moderator ill move on, you are a class act!

 

[Ryan Avery]

My apologies there moderator ill move on, you are a class act!

Hmm, wasn't even talking to you Para1.

 

[BeWitty]

Sam- i dont have wound pictures but my Dad shoots the 200 LRXs out of a 300 WBY and has 1 shot kills at 750 and 905. I shoot the 180 TTSX out of my 300 WBY and from 400 yds deer go legs up. I haven't had an opportunity to shoot an animal past 400 yards yet. Hopefully this year.

I know of a few instances where the Bergers have made quite a mess. Just my two cents.

 

[Broz]

I'd hardly call Bergers "controlled expansion" but maybe "uncontrolled expansion" and throwing a 55 grain from a 220 Swift does you "argument" little, if any, good - The Barnes TSX have had problems expanding at extended ranges but all I've been able to get for reviews and judgements say the TTSX has cured that - the FRONT SHOULDER is a classic "stop it where it stands" shot - try THAT with a Berger at 300 yards (and classic HUNTER'S range)

I think maybe you better read my post again. I never called Berger a controlled expansion bullet. Here is what I did say "The Barnes is a controlled expansion bullet and it does just that."

My offering the results from the deer I killed with a shoulder shot from a 220 swift years ago was only to support my observations that impact velocity and placement is way more detrimental as far as meat loss to bullet type. I can also offer that when I was hunting with 168 and 180 gr Barnes bullets in my 30-378's I lost more meat than ever before with any bullet. Again, placement and velocity are what looses meat in my experiences.

I am glad you found favorable internet posts for the TTSX. If it works well for you then by all mean use it and enjoy it. My personal, real world, experiences have differed. If you read farther in this thread you will find where another hunter had the same results as I did. which was inadequate expansion.

As for your " try that with a Berger" I hate to burst your bubble, but we have. I take numerous people out each year. Many use my rifles some use their own. An average year would be where we take 2 dozen elk. I am there or do the field dressing for all of them. This year we are participating in a deprivation hunt so the numbers will be even greater. I am hoping for 50 plus elk alone. Then you couple that with another dozen deer and antelope each year and this is where I draw my opinions of how bullets actually work in game. We always go for the shot behind the shoulder, in the crease below center. But it does not always work out that way. So I see what happens when we get a direct shoulder shot too. Even then I can honestly say again, we have not lost or even tracked one animal since we switched to Berger or other fragmenting bullets. So, yes we have taken bull elk in the shoulder with a Berger under 300 yards and a second shot was not needed.

In my personal opinion each bullet has its strong and weak points. The OP asked for results from 400 to 700. For that I would and do recommend Bergers. The farther out you go the more adequate expansion becomes an issue and the higher BC with less wind drift will only increase your chances of putting the bullet where you want. This does not mean that a Barnes has no place, I didn't say that at all. I only answered with what I feel is best for the criteria the op stated. That was longer distances and this thread is in the "Long Range Hunting" forum.

Jeff

 

[Broz]

Unfortunately I don't have a picture because I ended up covering the flash, but I shot a deer last year at 386 yards (not that long range I know) with 180gr Barnes ttsx out of a 300wm. I ended up shooting twice because the buck didn't move after the first shot and hit him twice in the crease. When I got closer he wasn't even fully dead to my disbelief and I shot him again. When I inspected the wound channels, the first two shots hit the buck right in the lungs but didn't create much of a channel at all and exited out of the ribs on the opposite side. The Third shot broke the front shoulder and exiting out of the ribs which likely created enough damage to end it more quickly. I was pretty shocked at the lack of knock down power and if I ever use the ttsx again (unlikely), I would be sure to hit the front shoulder (but that ruins a bunch of meat as well). I have yet to try the Barnes LRX which is on my list and may solve the issue, but pretty hard to go away from the Berger. Will be using up my 210 VLDs this year before opening the 215 hybrid boxes for my 300wm.

This has been our experience too. And the reason we have opted for fragmenting bullets. Since we are talking long range here, and we all know the farther out you go the more the environmental conditions (mainly wind) effect your shot placement, I opt to go for bullets that drift the least. Less drift is less error and the smaller the error , no matter where it comes from, the closer you will be from point of aim. Couple that with all bullets will have less expansion rates with lower impact velocities and again the fragmenting bulletss will have better terminal results.

Someone asked " how accurate are your rifles at distance" My rifles with high BC Berger bullets can and will shoot the same groups sizes in moa at 1500 yards as they do at 100. Sure wind will effect this. But again, why not use a bullet with less wind drift to reduce the error?

Jeff

 

[Justin Crossley]

Below is a good example of what I have personally seen with Bergers at closer ranges.

This bull was shot at 200 yds with a 140 Berger hunting VLD out of a 6.5-06 Ackley. Muzzle velocity was just under 3200 fps. The bull was moving, and I shot just a little forward of where I meant to. The bullet went in the forward part of the RH front shoulder, and out the other shoulder. Massive damage to his vitals, and he went down instantly. I did get some blood shot meat on the near side shoulder due to my bad shot placement, but the elk went down in his tracks, which is always my goal when hunting. I also cut up two mule deer last year that were shot with the same rifle at 250, and 300 yds. Neither had excessive meat damage imo. I'll keep using them near and far until I see a reason to change.

 

[Bushcraft]

Sam,

Unfortunately I don't have a picture of a wound channel with the TTSX at longer ranges. I'm personally not yet comfortable enough with my wind reading skills to take longer shots on game animals I intend to eat much past 650-700 yards in mountain conditions. That said, one of the bucks I took last year was at 492 yards, 23 degrees look up angle and very slightly quartered to me. Dialed the elevation and windage in the NightForce and touched off the lightweight 300 WSM. The 168 TTSX entered just above it’s elbow and hammered right on through. It took off the top of its heart and generally made a mess of the pump house. Little to no damage of otherwise edible meat.

I have a little honey hole where elk walk out every night at about 5:05PM. It’s about 6.25 miles from the nearest trailhead and down in a hellacious hole. Range is only 50 – 135 tops so I take my lightweight Kimber chambered in .308 Win. Every 168 TTSX I’ve whacked an elk with down there with that little Kimber has been moving along at approximately 2600-2500 fps by the time it got to them and has blown right through them as advertised, utterly devastating the pump house contents…with no meat loss or worry about having to pick out lead or copper jacket shards out of shoulder or rib meat. They’ve all staggered around a few seconds and keeled over dead. On one occasion I sensed that the herd was on the verge of bolting and the spike I had picked out was quartering to me and I elected to take the shot while I still had one. The TTSX went through the point of the onside shoulder muscle and bone, did it’s thing as advertized in the pump house (with a perfect 4 petal Barnes cut through the heart...I do have a picture of that somewhere), and blew on through the offside ribs and hide and into the woods. Point being, at that range, there’s still plenty of velocity for it to open up, dump energy and do its 100% weight retention bulldozer thing.

Last year, in the same spot, I somehow managed to misplace my TTSX shells back at camp and had to bum some Nosler Partitions off my hunting partner who also carries a lightweight .308 rig down into that hell hole. Out came the herd at the usual time. My partner won the coin toss but couldn’t get a shot on the spike from where he was sitting as the herd was milling around. I held off until the last possible shooting light before I decided to take the shot. The spike was hard quartered to me when I finally had a safe background without other elk behind it. It was only at 75 yards or so with it’s head down and feeding and I slipped that NP into the boiler room through the very front of the lower/inside/onside shoulder, with the intent of avoiding shoulder bone and taking out the heart. The NP slightly clipped shoulder bone but blew through and absolutely wreaked havoc on the inside. When we zipped him open I was reminded of why I stopped using lead grenades on critters I ultimately want on my dinner table. The heart, my favorite part, was wasted. I was reminded again later when I was processing all the hamburger meat. Never again unless I have to.

Anyway, for me personally, it really doesn’t have anything to do with range per se, it’s more of a terminal velocity issue with monolithic bullets that directly relates to my personal preference for a “clean” hole punched through a critter’s boiler room and minimal meat loss and mess. If the terminal velocity is up over 1900-2000 fps then I’m game to take the shot if I'm comfortable with the wind read. If not, the terminal velocity issue with the TTSX's is a limitation I can accept.

That said, if a giant freakin’ muley steps out and all I have on hand are the Berger 210 VLD’s….I’m going to drop the hammer.

Allen

 

[GKPrice]

i think maybe you better read my post again. I never called berger a controlled expansion bullet. Here is what i did say "the barnes is a controlled expansion bullet and it does just that."

my offering the results from the deer i killed with a shoulder shot from a 220 swift years ago was only to support my observations that impact velocity and placement is way more detrimental as far as meat loss to bullet type. I can also offer that when i was hunting with 168 and 180 gr barnes bullets in my 30-378's i lost more meat than ever before with any bullet. Again, placement and velocity are what looses meat in my experiences.

I am glad you found favorable internet posts for the ttsx. If it works well for you then by all mean use it and enjoy it. My personal, real world, experiences have differed. If you read farther in this thread you will find where another hunter had the same results as i did. Which was inadequate expansion.

As for your " try that with a berger" i hate to burst your bubble, but we have. I take numerous people out each year. Many use my rifles some use their own. An average year would be where we take 2 dozen elk. I am there or do the field dressing for all of them. This year we are participating in a deprivation hunt so the numbers will be even greater. I am hoping for 50 plus elk alone. Then you couple that with another dozen deer and antelope each year and this is where i draw my opinions of how bullets actually work in game. We always go for the shot behind the shoulder, in the crease below center. But it does not always work out that way. So i see what happens when we get a direct shoulder shot too. Even then i can honestly say again, we have not lost or even tracked one animal since we switched to berger or other fragmenting bullets. So, yes we have taken bull elk in the shoulder with a berger under 300 yards and a second shot was not needed.

In my personal opinion each bullet has its strong and weak points. The op asked for results from 400 to 700. For that i would and do recommend bergers. The farther out you go the more adequate expansion becomes an issue and the higher bc with less wind drift will only increase your chances of putting the bullet where you want. This does not mean that a barnes has no place, i didn't say that at all. I only answered with what i feel is best for the criteria the op stated. That was longer distances and this thread is in the "long range hunting" forum.

Jeff

pictures ?

 

[Elkfitness]

Jeff,

Would love for you take some pictures of the elk you take this season since you'll have a large sample size. I'm in the process of building my longer range rifle (for ranges similar to the OP's) and will be moving towards the Berger bullets for next year.

Mike

 

[Broz]

pictures ?

Not sure exactly what you are asking for with your one word reply. But I have files of terminal performance pictures from documenting wound channels , impact velocities, and penetration. It would take me a long time to post them all. But if you are doubting me here is a thread I did on another forum with photos of about 20 kills, (all the same season) documenting terminal performance of the 215 Berger Hybrid from my 300 win. Antelope , a deer or two and many elk both bulls and cows. Kill distances were from 200 yards to 1285.

If truly interested look here: http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/comparing-berger-210-vld-215-hybrid-88657/

This is a long thread and if you don't want to read it all the first antelope at 800 or so yards is on page 12 of the thread. Then more elk including a decent 340" bull I took at 600ish then on page 15 a bull we took in fog at 200 yards. This bullet entered behind the shoulder in the crease and traveled through the rib cage into the far shoulder. I reported 15+ inches of penetration at that time, and noted we were not sure how far it traveled through the far shoulder. Then when we skinned that bull later we found the bullet and fragments under the hide on the far side. The wound channel was big enough to put a tape measure easily in and penetration was a total of 26". That includes going all the way through the far shoulder bone even after the bullet had expanded.

Elfitness, (Mike) I do take pics and if you don't see what you want in the thread posted above just ask. I am always glad to share what I see and try to back up my observations with some recorded data. I use what I do for a reason, I hate tracking wounded elk.

Jeff

 

[Broz]

Also for those interested here is a second thread where we were documenting the terminal performance of the Berger 30 cal 230 gr Berger OTM and also the 338 cal 300 grain OTM's. Not sure how many samples are in here, but several.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/berger-230-300-otm-hybrid-terminal-results-80283/

And just in case anyone is wondering , I will state I use Berger bullets of my own choice because they flat work well for my needs. I have no affiliation with Berger and have never been paid or commissioned by them to do any research. I do it because I have a passion for long range hunting and choose to use what stacks the odds in my favor. Then I share my results so other can view them and make a decision if these bullet will suit their personal needs.

Thanks!

Jeff

 

[Sam Millard]

Here's a few more: http://www.rokslide.com/2012-01-09-...eason-with-a-260-remington-and-berger-bullets

 

[gelton]

pictures ?

Confucious say - sometimes those you think are keyboard commandos are actually hardcore aficionados.

ROFLMAO - I shoot bergers based on the information Jeff has provided over the years and he is more than happy to help simple folks like me work up a load that flat out shoots. Pictures? Thumb through that thread a little...ask and you shall receive.

In full disclosure I prefer barnes out of my 6.8 spc and think its the best bullet made for that application but application is the key term.

 

[mtnwrunner]

Full disclosure--------the 215's out of a 300 win mag rock.
Oh yeah, the 140 vld out of a 6.5 saum ain't too shabby either...............
I'm not supported by Berger either. Damn.

Randy

 

[Elkfitness]

Broz (Jeff) and Sam, thanks for those links. Perfect. Thanks again. Mike

 

[HONEYBADGER]

You can use the LRX from Barnes, I shoot the 175GRN in my 300WBY and they shoot great. I have shot antelope out to 500 and never had any problems killing them. Have taken a couple mule deer at closer ranges and they never went far either. From what I can tell they are a great hunting bullet. N560 or N570 works great and they shoot touching holes. Best of both worlds, non-toxic copper bullet but has a higher BC than the standard TTSX.

 

[Broz]

Since my last post we have taken 3 Elk during the deprivation rifle season with my 300 win and 215 Bergers. Distances of 450, 550 and 650 yards and change. All 3 by hunters that had never taken an elk before. All 3 one shot kills and none made it out of the immediate area. None experienced any meat loss other than a hand full of between rib meat. This puts my old 300 win at 27 and zero for cold bore one shot kills on big game. I guess I will keep using it and the Bergers for now.

Jeff