Bare shaft thoughts

[Clarson757]

So I’ve been hunting since 2019 with a compound. I went off the deep end and built my own arrows and have had 100% harvest/ shot rate.

I did not bare shaft tune my previous/ current setup. Just bought shafts, cut them to the same length and fletched. This summer I decided that I would start the process over but I wanted to bare shaft. I’m not planning on hunting with a different setup this season however wanted to get an idea of what I’d build for next season.

I’m wondering how much of this is the bow out of tune (just got new strings and full “tune” last month). How much of this is arrow selection? How much of this is me being human and not a perfect shot? Or, some combination of it all.

I shot full length shafts, cut shafts, different point weight, you name it. EVERYTHING was tearing nock-right. I tried shafts from 400-250. Point weights from 100-300. Paper tune at 5 yards showed consistent right tears. I began to assume my rest was not in alignment (trusting that everything was good from a recent overhaul at the shop).

Even when I picked up my bow at the shop, they said it had a slight right tear with a fletched arrow I left with them. They asked if it was sighted in with broadheads and I said yes. I sight my pins to my broadheads.

It took about 1.5 hrs on paper at 5 yards, target at 7 yards and every movement of my rest, I saw an improvement in the tears. My question is, am I tuning the bow to my arrow or my arrow to the bow or a happy medium? Seems like with this exercise, anyone could make their bow shoot any arrow. How much of that adjusting compromises arrow flight vs what is truly performing? Am I masking poor performance somehow?

 

[flyboy214]

I would not trust a shop to tune my bow. It sounds like you are very close to having it dialed. What model bow do you have?

I build the arrows I want and shoot 2 or 3 bare shafts through paper with my bow set to center shot. I will shim the cams if I would need to move my rest more than 1/8" either way. (mathews V3)

If you think it is hand torque, try intentionally taking a few shots through paper with different hand pressures to see what happens.

usually I can tell if the problem is human error when I see inconsistent tears. I.E one bullet hole then the same arrow causes a left tear on the next shot.

bottom line, I tune my bow to shoot the arrows I want to shoot. That could even mean changing the draw weight by up to 3 lbs if it makes the arrows group tighter. (john dudley wrote an article on that) Tune so that your broadheads hit with your field points and you get the most forgiving groups.

 

[Bump79]

I sight my pins to my broadheads.

The gains from getting you're broadheads to ground with field points is very big in my opinion.

Personally, given everything is in time, spec and rest is near centershot, I would skip bareshaft and paper and just screw on a broadhead. Broadhead hits right - micro adjust right. Broadhead hits up - micro adjust down. Vise versa

 

[Mighty Mouse]

As your experimentation with arrow spine/weight/length demonstrates, modern compound bows aren't really very sensitive to arrow spine and can typically handle a wide range of dynamic spines. Tuning the arrow to the bow is a traditional bow concept that doesn't have much relevance to a modern compound bow. With a compound, you adjust various aspects of the bow (namely: rest elevation, rest windage, d-loop location, cam timing, and cam lean) to get the rest aligned with the path traveled by the d-loop during the shot. Achieving that alignment manifests as a "bullet hole" paper tear, bareshafts grouping with fletched shafts, and broadheads grouping with field points.

There are two basic methods to resolve nock left/right arrow flight out of a compound bow: shift the rest or shift the cams. Most manufacturers recommend a 13/16" centershot measurement (horizontal distance from inside of riser to centerline of arrow), but it's perfectly acceptable to adjust your rest inside/outside of 13/16" when tuning (which it sounds like you did to eliminate your nock right tear). Opinions vary on how much you "should" deviate from 13/16", but at the end of the day, if it tunes it tunes. The alternative to adjusting rest windage is adjusting the lean or lateral position of the cams. Most bows require a press to make cam adjustments, some newer Bowtech and Elite models being notable exceptions that have press-less cam adjustment features.

It looks like you've achieved a good paper tear, now move on to tuning at distance. Broadheads grouping with field points is the ultimate goal. Bareshaft tuning is an optional intermediate step that you can use to save some wear on your target. The reference charts below show how to interpret these three tuning methods and what adjustments to make:

 

[KyleR1985]

What is your center shot set at with the bow shooting a bullet hole ?

What bow?

 

[Clarson757]

To answer a few questions at once-

Mathew’s V3 27
60lb draw at 28
Current distance from riser to center of arrow is .932”

From what I can tell by eyeballing while bow is stationary and level, my cams look square. My lower one might be slightly canted in comparison to the top cam (held a bubble lavel against flat side of cams).

As far as broads grouping the same as field points. I don’t think they will ever group together but broadheads grouping together as tightly as field points, I’m there now. I have confirmed 20 & 30 yards with broadheads.

 

[KyleR1985]

Get access to a press.

Have correct spine or slightly over spined arrows.

Get bow in spec on ata and draw length and weight with twists in strings and cables.

Buy top hat kit.

Set center shot to 13/16”.

Set Nock point level to 1/8” above level with arrow running through Berger.

Shoot bareshafts through paper and cycle through combinations of top hats until you get the smallest left/right tear.

You can 100% get that bow shooting bullet holes with center shot no more than 1/64-1/32” off of 13/16”. At worst 1/16” off.

You’re almost an 1/8” off.

If you do the above, you should have broadheads and field points hitting within a couple inches at 30 yards.

Shoot at 50 - broadhead then field point. You’ll know what micro adjustment you need at this point - broadheads will reveal it. Adjust rest left or right to clean it up. It will be very small changes at this point. Micro adjust rests are really nice here. But it can be done without micro adjust, and more patience.

It’s a simple process but you need time on a press to do it.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

As far as broads grouping the same as field points. I don’t think they will ever group together but broadheads grouping together as tightly as field points, I’m there now. I have confirmed 20 & 30 yards with broadheads.

Where are broadheads hitting in relation to field points? Also, what broadheads are you shooting?

 

[KyleR1985]

I have been able to get any bow I’ve owned (elite, prime, Mathews) to group fixed heads with field points out to 80 yards with my rest within 1/16” of oem recomended center shot.

Your bow is incredibly simple to get to this point. Unfortunately it requires a press to do so.

Get the bow in spec, and go ahead and get Nock point/rest height close. These won’t change once you start cycling through top hats.

I would say you’re more than likely to get less than a 1/4-1/2” left/right tear with the right top hats and your rest at center shot. (Bare shafts at close distance).


If you want to get really particular, once you settle on the right top hat combo, nock tune every bare shaft arrow. Shoot them through paper and rotate nocks until all arrows tear the same direction or shoot perfect bullets.


If you want to get more particular - cut arrows as short as possible, from both ends, and use an arrow squaring tool to clean up ends prior to nocks and inserts. Cycle out any arrows that don’t spin perfectly true.


You do all this, and your bow will shoot any weight spine arrow that isn’t too weak. With any broadhead within reason. If it doesn’t, it’s you.

 

[flyboy214]

Quick and dirty tuning for a mathews specifically.

 

[Clarson757]

Broadheads are 200gr tuff heads. Shafts are 300 spine VAP SS 27 9/16” 55 gr Easton half outsert.

This may be a dumb question but, if I’m hitting where I want and got a bullet hole bare shaft, why would I need/ want to mess with anything else?

I want my bow tuned properly. The shop I took it to is where I purchased it and they are a big Mathew’s dealer. I’m not sure why they’d send it home if it wasn’t shooting well or it was out of tune. I’m sure it happens but at a certain point I need to trust my bow is close to square, right?

 

[Clarson757]

Quick and dirty tuning for a mathews specifically.

I appreciate the video. I’m curious why he said bare shaft tuning was a wasted step for bow hunting. Also, before paper tuning, my arrow hit where I wanted them to. I think the issue with this logic is that your arrow is doing something when it leaves the string. Rolling, yaw, pitch, flex etc. why would you not want a bare shaft bullet hole, or what do you gain by not taking that step?

Another point I’ll make is that I adjusted my rest and my sight housing. Arrow bullet holes bare shaft on paper. Fletched arrows fly true and make impact where I want. What im missing is how can anyone say for certain the problem was the cams, timing, sight, rest, arrow spine etc. or even my own draw/ shot sequence or grip manipulation.

The more I dig into this stuff the more I realize that it is not a perfect science and that any adjustments can be made to achieve the desired outcome. How do we know which is “correct”?

 

[KyleR1985]

Broadheads are 200gr tuff heads. Shafts are 300 spine VAP SS 27 9/16” 55 gr Easton half outsert.

This may be a dumb question but, if I’m hitting where I want and got a bullet hole bare shaft, why would I need/ want to mess with anything else?

I want my bow tuned properly. The shop I took it to is where I purchased it and they are a big Mathew’s dealer. I’m not sure why they’d send it home if it wasn’t shooting well or it was out of tune. I’m sure it happens but at a certain point I need to trust my bow is close to square, right?

I shoot 225gr up front on 300 spine shafts cut 27-5/8” c2c with 29.5” draw 75lb mods and 285-290fps. You should be fine on spine.


You said the whole bundle when you said you don’t think you can get broadheads and field points to hit together. This means your bow is not tuned.

If you’re ok with that, that’s up to you. But it is in fact true that you’re settling. Will that cost you an animal? Maybe not. But a lot of penetration potential, and a lot of precision, are both robbed by arrows not pointing straight at what you want them to hit. The consequences are hard to quantify. You might suck at hunting anyway, and it makes no difference because you can’t hit a barn.

I don’t trust any shop that doesn’t go through the process of top hat tuning a new Mathews bow. They’re either lazy or don’t know how things work. It’s the whole point of the system.

Worst case, you lost some percentage of penetration potential, some precision, and maybe derail a string.

Best case you never notice the effects because you shoot decent and shoot at 10 animals over the next ten years and your furthest shot is 17 yards.

A compound bow is a very simple machine to tune up and get incredibly repeatable. Humans are not. Why have two out of tune machines?

 

[Mighty Mouse]

This may be a dumb question but, if I’m hitting where I want and got a bullet hole bare shaft, why would I need/ want to mess with anything else?

Because you don't hunt through paper. Broadheads hitting alongside field points is the ultimate goal of tuning for a hunter. Paper tuning to a bullet hole tear is a good starting point, but it doesn't guarantee that BH will hit with FP. Putting a BH on the arrow changes its aerodynamics, and the final tuning step should always be shooting BH at distance (which is how you hunt) and comparing its point of impact to FP.

I want my bow tuned properly. The shop I took it to is where I purchased it and they are a big Mathew’s dealer. I’m not sure why they’d send it home if it wasn’t shooting well or it was out of tune. I’m sure it happens but at a certain point I need to trust my bow is close to square, right?

Slight differences in grip, anchor, etc. between shooters can necessitate changes to the tune. A shop can get you close, but ultimately the bow needs to be tuned with you shooting it. If they sent your bow home with the rest at 13/16" centershot, arrow running level through the Berger hole, and cams in sync, that's about all you can expect.

The more I dig into this stuff the more I realize that it is not a perfect science and that any adjustments can be made to achieve the desired outcome. How do we know which is “correct”?

The desired outcome is BH hitting alongside FP out to your maximum effective hunting range. I'm more pragmatic than some when it comes to bow tuning...if the aforementioned outcome is achieved, whatever you did to get there qualifies as "correct" in my book.

 

[KyleR1985]

I appreciate the video. I’m curious why he said bare shaft tuning was a wasted step for bow hunting. Also, before paper tuning, my arrow hit where I wanted them to. I think the issue with this logic is that your arrow is doing something when it leaves the string. Rolling, yaw, pitch, flex etc. why would you not want a bare shaft bullet hole, or what do you gain by not taking that step?

Another point I’ll make is that I adjusted my rest and my sight housing. Arrow bullet holes bare shaft on paper. Fletched arrows fly true and make impact where I want. What im missing is how can anyone say for certain the problem was the cams, timing, sight, rest, arrow spine etc. or even my own draw/ shot sequence or grip manipulation.

The more I dig into this stuff the more I realize that it is not a perfect science and that any adjustments can be made to achieve the desired outcome. How do we know which is “correct”?

Not true. There are very concrete steps you can take to tune up a compound bow. Especially your fancy new bow!

They’re reliable and repeatable.

If your pro shop doesn’t know them or won’t do them, that stinks, but isn’t surprising.

There are cases where you can shortcut the system and achieve a specific result you’re looking for. But it will not be a tuned bow. And it will not be maximum transfer of energy from the bow to the broadhead. Which is the point of all of this.

If good enough is good enough, go hunt.

If you want a tuned bow that you can no longer blame for your misses, read above.

 

[Clarson757]

I shoot 225gr up front on 300 spine shafts cut 27-5/8” c2c with 29.5” draw 75lb mods and 285-290fps. You should be fine on spine.


You said the whole bundle when you said you don’t think you can get broadheads and field points to hit together. This means your bow is not tuned.

If you’re ok with that, that’s up to you. But it is in fact true that you’re settling. Will that cost you an animal? Maybe not. But a lot of penetration potential, and a lot of precision, are both robbed by arrows not pointing straight at what you want them to hit. The consequences are hard to quantify. You might suck at hunting anyway, and it makes no difference because you can’t hit a barn.

I don’t trust any shop that doesn’t go through the process of top hat tuning a new Mathews bow. They’re either lazy or don’t know how things work. It’s the whole point of the system.

Worst case, you lost some percentage of penetration potential, some precision, and maybe derail a string.

Best case you never notice the effects because you shoot decent and shoot at 10 animals over the next ten years and your furthest shot is 17 yards.

A compound bow is a very simple machine to tune up and get incredibly repeatable. Humans are not. Why have two out of tune machines?

I know I suck at hunting

Good points above and I agree with them. If my bare shaft is paper tuned to a bullet hole and my sight is set up so the field points and broadhead hit the same, aren’t I in the clear? I got this bow a few years back and it’s always shot well. My rest was never moved and my arrows went where the pin was set.

If I moved my rest to achieve the desired bare shaft paper tune, and the broadheads fly, why is it bad that my rest is not exactly 13/16? If it were supposed to be a specific distance, why does it have so much adjustability?

The reason I said that I didn’t think field points would hit the same POI as broad heads is because they are not the same. Putting a fixed wing on the front has so much potential to impact flight characteristics that it doesn’t seem logical to me that they could ever be exactly the same. The fletchings have to overcome so much more influence from a broadhead than that of a field point. Regardless, I still keep going back to the question - if I have a paper tuned arrow, it flys to where I’m aiming, how do I know if the bow isn’t performing correctly? If all combinations of arrows all do the exact same thing.

 

[Clarson757]

Not true. There are very concrete steps you can take to tune up a compound bow. Especially your fancy new bow!

They’re reliable and repeatable.

If your pro shop doesn’t know them or won’t do them, that stinks, but isn’t surprising.

There are cases where you can shortcut the system and achieve a specific result you’re looking for. But it will not be a tuned bow. And it will not be maximum transfer of energy from the bow to the broadhead. Which is the point of all of this.

If good enough is good enough, go hunt.

If you want a tuned bow that you can no longer blame for your misses, read above.

Wouldn’t I be losing maximum potential energy transfer if the arrow is leaving the bow sideways?

Rather, if I get a bullet hole paper tune I can assume it’s leaving the bow straight. Put fletchings and a broadhead on and they should also be leaving the bow “straight”.

How can I know if my bow is not “tuned” properly if the only variable on the bow being changed was the horizontal distance of the rest from the riser?

 

[Mighty Mouse]

The reason I said that I didn’t think field points would hit the same POI as broad heads is because they are not the same. Putting a fixed wing on the front has so much potential to impact flight characteristics that it doesn’t seem logical to me that they could ever be exactly the same. The fletchings have to overcome so much more influence from a broadhead than that of a field point.

If you shoot far enough, you will eventually see a POI difference between BH and FP even out of a perfectly tuned bow because a BH induces more drag. But within typical hunting ranges, it's usually possible to get BH and FP to hit effectively the "same" spot (i.e., hit together within the shooter's grouping ability).

 

[Clarson757]

If you shoot far enough, you will eventually see a POI difference between BH and FP even out of a perfectly tuned bow because a BH induces more drag. But within typical hunting ranges, it's usually possible to get BH and FP to hit effectively the "same" spot (i.e., hit together within the shooter's grouping ability).

Totally agree. I’m sure this won’t make a difference to the answers I’ve gotten from the group but here’s as good a pic as I could get with arrow nocked.

 

[KyleR1985]

If broadheads and field points hit together at distances further than you’ll hunt, that’s an acceptable result. From the arrow’s perspective, it doesn’t care how it’s made to fly straight.

If it takes your rest being 1” away from the riser to do it, maybe things will be fine maybe not.

You’re pushing the limits of what the bow is intended to operate within. If your rest is that far out, it’s because either one or both of your cams are too far to one side of the bow, not in the middle of the axle as intended. If you’re not rubbing cables, and you’re not seeing so much cam lean so as to jump a string out of its groove in the cam, maybe things are fine. Maybe it’s not.

It’s possible you’re not shooting well enough at distance with consistent enough arrows to see that the bow is out of tune. Maybe not.

Most of the information was targeted at you saying you can’t get broadheads to hit with field points. You can.

As stated, the only difference CAN be, if you tune the bow properly and shoot well, that your broadheads begin to hit low at extreme distances because of the increased drag.

I guess it just seems silly to me to argue for settling for the equipment not being set up properly. It makes sense to me, I guess, to not care enough to do it, or think it doesn’t matter. But arguing that it isn’t so is confusing.