Bad choice for Colorado Muzzleload?

[Bar]

Nope - not in Oregon or Idaho - has to be lead...

I was responding to this part of his post Mike.

"Oregon has indicated they want to go to "lead free" ammo for hunting but still require all lead for muzzleloader seasons. because sabots are not legal there really are not any all copper alternatives available. They need to chose a direction."


I'm just saying that Oregon would have an option if they wanted to go totally lead free.


btw..This is Pete. (muley)

 

[sabotloader]

I was responding to this part of his post Mike.

"Oregon has indicated they want to go to "lead free" ammo for hunting but still require all lead for muzzleloader seasons. because sabots are not legal there really are not any all copper alternatives available. They need to chose a direction."


I'm just saying that Oregon would have an option if they wanted to go totally lead free.


btw..This is Pete. (muley)

OK - I thought he was talking about Oregon.

 

[Bar]

He was, but more about what they want to do than what's legal now.

 

[sabotloader]

He was, but more about what they want to do than what's legal now.

Oregon and Washington both leaned to the lead ban but neither State passed the ban, and I have not seen anything that they have moved in that direction this year or for the near future. That is not to say they can not or will not try the push again. Washington somewhat eased the move by allowing sabots giving their hunters the option of going lead free with Barnes and Lehigh or Bloodlines

If they do then other companies might and probably would get in the market. I know Lehigh has already made a prototype brass full bore and already offer brass bullets to be used in sabots.







Still Idaho and Oregon remain with the full bore lead rule and cap ignition... So Thors and Lehigh's are still not legal even if you wanted to go lead free.

 

[Bar]

You should be quoting post #18. He's the one who brought it up.

I live in Colorado.

 

[stevenm2]

I am bummed my attached pic will not open. I will shoot all lead conicals as long as they will allow it. I would prefer an even longer conical for the 1:28 twist but 460 gr. is as long as I can go.

 

[jb79]

Stevenme I am new to ML hunting and also from Oregon, I was told that the sub bases can not be used.... Is there any truth to this? I drew s indigo this year and am excited but do not have any really ML experience, I have a TC nw explorer that I got a good deal on and in the process of getting set up for this November if you have any suggestions I am all ears anyone else that has experience with this ML feel free to chime in.

 

[sabotloader]

Stevenme I am new to ML hunting and also from Oregon, I was told that the sub bases can not be used.... Is there any truth to this? I drew s indigo this year and am excited but do not have any really ML experience, I have a TC nw explorer that I got a good deal on and in the process of getting set up for this November if you have any suggestions I am all ears anyone else that has experience with this ML feel free to chime in.

Is a lead Power Belt legal in Oregon?

Even if they will not allow you to use a sub base, and make sure they know it does not attach to the bullet nor does the bullet go in it, You can probably use a shot card under the conical and possibly achieve the same results.

Also check first but I believe a TC NW Explorer is a 1/48 twist which will make your bullet selection a little more narrow. You will probably need to use a conical that is fairly short to achieve stabilization. This also complicates things a bit because if you use the normal shorter conicals they have a cup base and if your rifle has a QLA muzzle you might be in trouble for consistent accuracy. You probably will need to find a short flat based conical.

 

[jb79]

Yes it is a 1/48 and I believe that lead power belt are legal( someone correct me if I am wrong). I am new to this so not sure what a QLA is, I have read a couple of your post with this term in it but really don't understand it. Thanks for the help!

 

[sabotloader]

Yes it is a 1/48 and I believe that lead power belt are legal( someone correct me if I am wrong). I am new to this so not sure what a QLA is, I have read a couple of your post with this term in it but really don't understand it. Thanks for the help!

If a lead power belt is legal then I am sure that a sub base would be deemed legal if a Fish and Game LEO would look at what we are proposing. The person you asked probably thought is was a sabot which it isn't.

The QLA is the expanded area at the muzzle of your bore that allows easier loading of the projectile... I'll try to post a drawing but photobucket is not working right now.

Here is the drawing...

 

[stevenm2]

This is the definition of a "Muzzleloader" as posted on the ODFW website;

•Scopes (permanent and detachable), and sights that use batteries, artificial light or energy are not allowed during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only, except for visually impaired hunters who have a visual acuity of ≤ 20/200 with lenses or visual field of ≤ 20 degrees (a permit is required; please see page 86). Open and peep sights made from alloys, plastic, or other materials that do not have the properties described above are legal sights. Fiber optics and fluorescent paint incorporated into or on open or iron sights are legal.


• It is illegal to hunt with on-lead bullets, jacketed bullets, sabots, and bullets with plastic or synthetic bases during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only. Conical lead or lead alloy bullets with a length that does not exceed twice the diameter and lead or lead alloy round balls used with cloth, paper, or felt patches are allowed.


• It is illegal to hunt with centerfire primers as an ignition source during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.


• It is illegal to hunt with pelletized powders or propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only. Granular (loose) black powder and black powder substitutes are the only legal propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.


• No other firearm may be used for hunting during a muzzleloader-only season (See definition page 10 or regulations book).


• Muzzleloading firearms with revolving actions are prohibited during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.


I do not see how they could possibly say the subbases are illegal as they are not part of the bullet. I do not see where the lead powerbelt could possibly be legal as I attempt to interpret these convoluted mish mash of words they call rules. I read somewhere they would accept a lead free bullet but it sure does not show up when defining a "muzzleloader" The "open ignition" rule is posted elsewhere in a chart that says what the minimum caliber for each species. These guys need to get a grip on the intentions of this restriction.

 

[dbaker]

i had purchased a traditions vortek for colorado a couple of years ago and couldn't get my groups that tight until i tried bullets from "no excuses muzzleloading". someone on here recommended them to me. there over 400 grains and the maker told me about how how the modern muzzleloaders were made for sabots and that a heavier non sabat bullet will stabalize better with the twist. after shooting them a paper plate at 100 yards is no problem. there not to expensive either.

 

[sabotloader]

This is the definition of a "Muzzleloader" as posted on the ODFW website;

•Scopes (permanent and detachable), and sights that use batteries, artificial light or energy are not allowed during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only, except for visually impaired hunters who have a visual acuity of ≤ 20/200 with lenses or visual field of ≤ 20 degrees (a permit is required; please see page 86). Open and peep sights made from alloys, plastic, or other materials that do not have the properties described above are legal sights. Fiber optics and fluorescent paint incorporated into or on open or iron sights are legal.


• It is illegal to hunt with on-lead bullets, jacketed bullets, sabots, and bullets with plastic or synthetic bases during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only. Conical lead or lead alloy bullets with a length that does not exceed twice the diameter and lead or lead alloy round balls used with cloth, paper, or felt patches are allowed.

• It is illegal to hunt with centerfire primers as an ignition source during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.


• It is illegal to hunt with pelletized powders or propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only. Granular (loose) black powder and black powder substitutes are the only legal propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.


• No other firearm may be used for hunting during a muzzleloader-only season (See definition page 10 or regulations book).


• Muzzleloading firearms with revolving actions are prohibited during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.


I do not see how they could possibly say the subbases are illegal as they are not part of the bullet. I do not see where the lead powerbelt could possibly be legal as I attempt to interpret these convoluted mish mash of words they call rules. I read somewhere they would accept a lead free bullet but it sure does not show up when defining a "muzzleloader" The "open ignition" rule is posted elsewhere in a chart that says what the minimum caliber for each species. These guys need to get a grip on the intentions of this restriction.

So that does rule out the Power Belt and I believe it also rules the sub-bridge out... But a shot card or felt wad would be acceptable. The felt wad probably would not work for the QLA problem but possibly a shot card would with a flat bottom bullet.

jb79 a bullet that might work well for with a shot card could be a .50 cal x 385 grain Buffalo Bullet if you can find any.

Another thought which would be short enough, is Dan, Bull Bullets, does make a .503x35 grain flat bottom lead conical that would work from a 1-48.

This picture shows one sitting on top of a sub-base that I am getting ready to push down... bottom right side of the picture.

 

[jb79]

Thanks for the help guys like i said pretty new to this was confusing power belt with the maxi.. Really just trying to learn as much as I can with out over thinking it didn't mean to hijack the thread, I am sure I'll have more questions in the future

 

[sabotloader]

Thanks for the help guys like i said pretty new to this was confusing power belt with the maxi.. Really just trying to learn as much as I can with out over thinking it didn't mean to hijack the thread, I am sure I'll have more questions in the future

No hi-jack at al - Questions - that is what it is all about...

mike

 

[jb79]

Sabotloader ,
What is the difference between the bighorn and disc extreme? I was planning on buying a back up ML before my hunt , I be been looking at the knights and seems a lot on here are shooting them. I have seen some of the old knights on line for pretty cheap. I plan on using the Williams fg peep basically the same set your running.... Do you know if the make them for the tc explorer haven't been able to find one but haven't call them either, I know I'd have to have it tapped.

 

[sabotloader]

Sabotloader ,
What is the difference between the bighorn and disc extreme? I was planning on buying a back up ML before my hunt ,

OK you asked.. but remember I am also a bit based...

The real difference is that the Big Horn is a open breech 'plunger gun' while the DISC series is a bolt system. I believe the DISC offers greater versatility for a variety of different types of hunting.

They are all accurate solid well built rifles.

I be been looking at the knights and seems a lot on here are shooting them. I have seen some of the old knights on line for pretty cheap. I plan on using the Williams fg peep basically the same set your running.... Do you know if the make them for the tc explorer haven't been able to find one but haven't call them either, I know I'd have to have it tapped.

I am not sure if Williams makes a FP for the TC NWestexplorer. So the rifle receiver is not tapped for scope mounts?

They probably have one that will fit because it is basically an TC Omega if I remember correctly.

 

[stevenm2]

So that does rule out the Power Belt and I believe it also rules the sub-bridge out...

I am not sure about the sub bridge as the rule states "Illegal... sabots, and bullets with plastic or synthetic bases" the bullet itself does not have a plastic base as some on the market do. the Bullet in my case is a 460 gr. full lead conical either no excuses or bullshop. the sub base is a separate piece acting as a wad not a sabot.
I do not want to sound like a whiner, But the rule was written with some loose terms. I may pursue this further with ODFW for clarification.

 

[sabotloader]

So that does rule out the Power Belt and I believe it also rules the sub-bridge out...

I am not sure about the sub bridge as the rule states "Illegal... sabots, and bullets with plastic or synthetic bases" the bullet itself does not have a plastic base as some on the market do. the Bullet in my case is a 460 gr. full lead conical either no excuses or bullshop. the sub base is a separate piece acting as a wad not a sabot.
I do not want to sound like a whiner, But the rule was written with some loose terms. I may pursue this further with ODFW for clarification.

Steve I certainly would agree with your thoughts. The sub base is acting as a gas seal and is not attached to the bullet so were I in Oregon I would certainly take an example to a local Fish and Wildlife LEO so he could get a State wide opinion.

 

[stevenm2]

Thanks Mike I will follow up and post what I find out.