Avery vs. JvB - Podcast Back and Forths

[hereinaz]

I'd rather have a form vs broz episode. I don't think jvb has any actual opinions. He's just repeating whatever the gun company that most recently gave him free stuff told him.

Edit to add: you just watch. If Hornady or someone ever tries to make a high velocity 6 mm for big game, jvb will be on board immediately.

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Listen to the JVB podcast with Seth from Hornady killing dozens of African game with 22 creed and 22 arc…

 

[Forestryguy]

Who is this Broz person?

 

[will_brap]

Who is this Broz person?

I think he is a long range hunter who (like Form/S2H/many of us) is recognizing the importance of bullet construction but is more into larger calibers/cartridges.


I don’t know much but here is a spot to start digging:

215gr Berger Hybrid Target for hunting

Hello Everyone, As a hunter I am strictly opposed to hunting with target bullets. That being said bullet manufacturers have been known to advertise target bullets that perform very well on game. My questions for you fellow hunters that have hunted with these bullets are 1. Does the bullet...

www.longrangehunting.com

 

[will_brap]

After some digging I think Broz is the owner of long range only. Some of his relevant threads are here:

Bullets and Ballistics

Discuss bullets and ballistics here

www.longrangeonly.com

 

[cuerro viejo]

Think it’s funny Joseph has been hunting for a long long time all over the world and had compiled a large data set of his own. Killed lots of big African animals, elk, etc. s2h talks about data data data. But when there’s someone else with a large sample size of data out there, he’s just stupid cause his data set opposes yours? A lot of people on here just repeat or quote what’s said on the s2h podcast about small calibers so do they actually have an opinion or just repeating what they are told as well?

Sorry but that’s a not a large data set. Thats average. Cool he kills 5 animals a year maybe 10 if he goes to Africa …with larger calibers. What about those Texas boys on MLD ranches that HAVE to cull 40 -100 plus deer and exotics(aoudad, cow elk, axis, nilgi, etc) and another 50 plus hogs EVERY year and do it with small calibers? Who has more experience to provide a rebuttal?

I’d listen to the guys that have had the ability to drive around from high rack, jump in a helo, etc and HAVE to kill stuff 365 days a year, to stay in their state prescribed management programs, and spend 10k plus a year in donated hunters for hungry processing charges

Too each their own, podcasts are decent information but the heavy sponsored full time job ones like JvB arent really big data sets. Decent yes but big…. Not close

To have an actual large data set you aren’t getting it from public tag states or even general private land tags. you have to be part of a private land state management program focused on helping maintain optimal carrying capacity. Now is that Avery? no. Is that JvB? no…
Closet to that is Form and Boz.

Ego’s are fun until the quantifying of experience comes full tilt.

 

[Trogon]

If these “establishment” gun rag writers admit that wallop and knockdown power and penetration and all this horseshit they have been writing about to give all their advertisers a happy ending in every “review” (aka SE asian massage) their whole writing career would be a complete joke. Oh wait it already is.

 

[Justin Crossley]

Who is this Broz person?

Jeff Brozovich is a long time friend of a few of us here at Rokslide and the owner of Long Range Only.

He's a knowledgeable guy with a lot of long range experience. One of the best ELR hunters out there.

 

[Wyobohunter]

like winning the Special Olympics…

Uncool. Be a better human.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Preview wallop analysis

85 pound doe. 338 win mag, norma oryx 230gr. 70 yard shot. ~ 2700 fps impact. Exit hole shown. Bang flop, and i could see little smoke curley Q's coming out of the exit hole for a few seconds after the shot. Talk about wallop!!!

It’s quite common to shoot little deer with big rifles in AK, for obvious reasons.

 

[Quandary]

I’m squarely in the anti-magnum cartridge camp for any and all applications,

Why? Why do you care what someone else shoots? I could care less about what you shoot, why would you care what I shoot? I am pretty sure that a 108 ELDM or a 180ELDM through the lungs of an animal will kill it. Why should you care if I choose to use a 180?

 

[will_brap]

Why? Why do you care what someone else shoots? I could care less about what you shoot, why would you care what I shoot? I am pretty sure that a 108 ELDM or a 180ELDM through the lungs of an animal will kill it. Why should you care if I choose to use a 180?

Why would you care if he cares what you shoot?

(that was an attempt at humor)

Seriously though, I care what others think because:
A) They might know more than me on any particular subject and I can learn from their thought pattern/logic/experiences.
B) They might know less than me on any particular subject and I can give them insight that will help them make better choices
C) If they're a buddy, I might have the chance to make fun of their dumb opinions.

 

[Quandary]

Why would you care if he cares what you shoot?

(that was an attempt at humor)

Seriously though, I care what others think because:
A) They might know more than me on any particular subject and I can learn from their thought pattern/logic/experiences.
B) They might know less than me on any particular subject and I can give them insight that will help them make better choices
C) If they're a buddy, I might have the chance to make fun of their dumb opinions.

That isn't the point. When you say you are "anti-anything" that means you are opposed to it and want they act to be ceased and want others to comply. For example, I am anti-war and I will actively work to preventing it. The point is it is as dumb to be anti-magnum as it is to be anti-small caliber.

 

[JohnJohnson]

When you say you are "anti-anything" that means you are opposed to it and want they act to be ceased.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume he's not planning on committing industrial espionage by sabotaging the machinery companies use to create magnum bolt faces.

 

[will_brap]

That isn't the point. When you say you are "anti-anything" that means you are opposed to it and want they act to be ceased. For example, I am anti-war. The point is it is as dumb to be anti-magnum as it is to be anti-small caliber.

We're on the same page, I think.

Nobody is coming to confiscate magnum rifles or outlaw the use of non magnums. I think its just a discussion about which tool is best for the job.

 

[Quandary]

We're on the same page, I think.

Nobody is coming to confiscate magnum rifles or outlaw the use of non magnums. I think its just a discussion about which tool is best for the job.

That's the point the isn't. A civil discussion about the pluses and minus of the various choices and points of view and respect for each person to make their own decisions based on that individuals needs and preferences. Rather than being "anti" why not be cool happy that works for you, I prefer X it works for me. I'll do me, you do you.

The whole tone of the big versus little discussion and the derision of people with a different point of view, JVB for example, is ridiculous.

 

[nobody]

Why? Why do you care what someone else shoots? I could care less about what you shoot, why would you care what I shoot? I am pretty sure that a 108 ELDM or a 180ELDM through the lungs of an animal will kill it. Why should you care if I choose to use a 180?

Because I don’t feel they’re necessary. Hunters as a whole would be better marksmen if the “magnum” was never invented. Every gun writer told people they NEEDED a magnum to kill elk, and we’ve been told we NEED a magnum to shoot long range. The truth is that what we as hunters need is exponentially more trigger time in field positions outside the confines of an organized range.

I don’t care if people want to use them, but it doesn’t change the fact that a magnum is not necessary for any big game hunting/killing. It’s no secret that anyone shoots a lighter recoiling rifle better, no matter how big a guy’s you-know-what is. Doesn’t mean someone can’t use a magnum, but there’s no logical reason to use one. Ryan Avery is the only one I’ve ever heard give a legitimate argument for a big magnum rifle, and that’s to see splash beyond 1k yards. But the number of hunters who have any business shooting at game at even half that distance is so laughably small it’s not even part of the conversation. Everyone would be better served with lighter recoiling rifles and thousands of practice rounds.

And to your point of a 108 vs a 180, if the end result is the same with each, where is the logic in using the 180 over the 108? If the 180 recoils more, is presumably shot from a rifle that’s far more expensive to reload for and shoot, burns more powder, but the end result is the same, why would anyone logically come to the conclusion that the 180 makes sense over the 108? Not an emotional conclusion, but a logical conclusion. Again, unless a guy is consistently shooting beyond 1k and needs to see splash, there’s no logical reason to shoot a 180 over a 108.

I’m not saying someone can’t use a magnum, I’m saying I’m against the idea of the overwhelming majority of hunters using a magnum for ANY reason. Hunters, as a group, spend way too much money on rifles we use and shoot and practice with way too little, stuff them full of crappy projectiles, and shoot way further than abilities suggest is wise.

I don’t care if you want to shoot a magnum. But I’ll stand behind my statement there’s no logical reason to do so inside 1k, assuming the person is practiced (they should be) and is utilizing the right type of projectile with a low minimum upset velocity. For those reasons, I’m against magnums for hunters, because as a group the overwhelming majority don’t have the shooting skills to use them effectively and DEFINITELY don’t practice enough. Maybe you do, I don’t know you from Adam. But if you do fall into the camp of “enough practice with a magnum” you’re part of the <1% without question.

 

[Quandary]

Because I don’t feel they’re necessary. Hunters as a whole would be better marksmen if the “magnum” was never invented. Every gun writer told people they NEEDED a magnum to kill elk, and we’ve been told we NEED a magnum to shoot long range. The truth is that what we as hunters need is exponentially more trigger time in field positions outside the confines of an organized range.

I don’t care if people want to use them, but it doesn’t change the fact that a magnum is not necessary for any big game hunting/killing. It’s no secret that anyone shoots a lighter recoiling rifle better, no matter how big a guy’s you-know-what is. Doesn’t mean someone can’t use a magnum, but there’s no logical reason to use one. Ryan Avery is the only one I’ve ever heard give a legitimate argument for a big magnum rifle, and that’s to see splash beyond 1k yards. But the number of hunters who have any business shooting at game at even half that distance is so laughably small it’s not even part of the conversation. Everyone would be better served with lighter recoiling rifles and thousands of practice rounds.

And to your point of a 108 vs a 180, if the end result is the same with each, where is the logic in using the 180 over the 108? If the 180 recoils more, is presumably shot from a rifle that’s far more expensive to reload for and shoot, burns more powder, but the end result is the same, why would anyone logically come to the conclusion that the 180 makes sense over the 108? Not an emotional conclusion, but a logical conclusion. Again, unless a guy is consistently shooting beyond 1k and needs to see splash, there’s no logical reason to shoot a 180 over a 108.

I’m not saying someone can’t use a magnum, I’m saying I’m against the idea of the overwhelming majority of hunters using a magnum for ANY reason. Hunters, as a group, spend way too much money on rifles we use and shoot and practice with way too little, stuff them full of crappy projectiles, and shoot way further than abilities suggest is wise.

I don’t care if you want to shoot a magnum. But I’ll stand behind my statement there’s no logical reason to do so inside 1k, assuming the person is practiced (they should be) and is utilizing the right type of projectile with a low minimum upset velocity. For those reasons, I’m against magnums for hunters, because as a group the overwhelming majority don’t have the shooting skills to use them effectively and DEFINITELY don’t practice enough. Maybe you do, I don’t know you from Adam. But if you do fall into the camp of “enough practice with a magnum” you’re part of the <1% without question.

Based on your post you clearly want to impose your judgement on others choices. I will let you worry about how you try to establish your moral and intellectual superiority over others. Not my problem. As for me, I am going to go and happily kill an Aoudad next week with my 7PRC.

 

[2buffalo]

Because I don’t feel they’re necessary. Hunters as a whole would be better marksmen if the “magnum” was never invented. Every gun writer told people they NEEDED a magnum to kill elk, and we’ve been told we NEED a magnum to shoot long range. The truth is that what we as hunters need is exponentially more trigger time in field positions outside the confines of an organized range.

I don’t care if people want to use them, but it doesn’t change the fact that a magnum is not necessary for any big game hunting/killing. It’s no secret that anyone shoots a lighter recoiling rifle better, no matter how big a guy’s you-know-what is. Doesn’t mean someone can’t use a magnum, but there’s no logical reason to use one. Ryan Avery is the only one I’ve ever heard give a legitimate argument for a big magnum rifle, and that’s to see splash beyond 1k yards. But the number of hunters who have any business shooting at game at even half that distance is so laughably small it’s not even part of the conversation. Everyone would be better served with lighter recoiling rifles and thousands of practice rounds.

And to your point of a 108 vs a 180, if the end result is the same with each, where is the logic in using the 180 over the 108? If the 180 recoils more, is presumably shot from a rifle that’s far more expensive to reload for and shoot, burns more powder, but the end result is the same, why would anyone logically come to the conclusion that the 180 makes sense over the 108? Not an emotional conclusion, but a logical conclusion. Again, unless a guy is consistently shooting beyond 1k and needs to see splash, there’s no logical reason to shoot a 180 over a 108.

I’m not saying someone can’t use a magnum, I’m saying I’m against the idea of the overwhelming majority of hunters using a magnum for ANY reason. Hunters, as a group, spend way too much money on rifles we use and shoot and practice with way too little, stuff them full of crappy projectiles, and shoot way further than abilities suggest is wise.

I don’t care if you want to shoot a magnum. But I’ll stand behind my statement there’s no logical reason to do so inside 1k, assuming the person is practiced (they should be) and is utilizing the right type of projectile with a low minimum upset velocity. For those reasons, I’m against magnums for hunters, because as a group the overwhelming majority don’t have the shooting skills to use them effectively and DEFINITELY don’t practice enough. Maybe you do, I don’t know you from Adam. But if you do fall into the camp of “enough practice with a magnum” you’re part of the <1% without question.

You seem to care way to much about what other people are doing and make a lot of assumptions on others abilities.

 

[Stearinlys]

 

[Quandary]

View attachment 824066

Actually not at all. I have zero problem with small calibers. In fact I will likely re-barrel my 6.5PRCs with 6PRC barrels after they are shot out this summer. The above is all about internet warriors trying to impose their view point on others regardless of their limited knowledge and experience. Let's use the example of Form, for whom I have great respect. Form has earn respect through extensive personal experience, far more than most anyone could ever hope for, yet Form goes out of his way to tell you that he isn't telling anybody what to do or what is right for them. Form conveys his experience and observations without prejudice (in fact he even tells you he loves shooting big guns), you make the decision of what is right for you. That is something I can respect.