Avery vs. JvB - Podcast Back and Forths

[MT_Wyatt]

I think JVB is obviously listening and paying attention. I also hear a lot of bought and paid for advertisement coming from him - can’t really hold it against him, that’s the world he’s progressed through. But then again I’d love to hear some straight talk, not sponsored product pushes.

Here’s what’s funny - the dogma people are railing against is literally what JVB is pushing. “Feet of muscle and bone” vs 22 ARC crushing a moose femur. Literally. Both can be right in some respects - different approaches to the same job. But where I started to really pay attention is the idea of maximizing hit rates and the “killing” part with these modern bullets. JVB isn’t on that train yet. It’s literally monos and controlled expansion vs more frangible bullets.

 

[AZ_Hunter]

JvB:

“This Podcast is brought to you by Barnes; who has introduced their next evolution of technology with their all copper, monolithic, Magnum condom. Nothing provides deeeep penetration, like a copper monolithic Magnum Jimmy cap. Maximum energy, minimal expansion… total satisfaction. Penetration so deep, SO deep, it put Ron’s ass to sleep.”

 

[gabenzeke]

JvB:

“This Podcast is brought to you by Barnes; who has introduced their next evolution of technology with their all copper, monolithic, Magnum condom. Nothing provides deeeep penetration, like a copper monolithic Magnum Jimmy cap. Maximum energy, minimal expansion… total satisfaction. Penetration so deep, SO deep, it put Ron’s ass to sleep.”

I read that in his voice. Enough internet for one day.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[Fire_9]

Think it’s funny Joseph has been hunting for a long long time all over the world and had compiled a large data set of his own. Killed lots of big African animals, elk, etc. s2h talks about data data data. But when there’s someone else with a large sample size of data out there, he’s just stupid cause his data set opposes yours? A lot of people on here just repeat or quote what’s said on the s2h podcast about small calibers so do they actually have an opinion or just repeating what they are told as well?

I don't follow any of his content, but I would never discount any of his data and say that what he's doing doesn't work. I don't think anyone has ever said big cartridges/calibers don't work. People have just said that they're not needed to have a favorable outcome. The problem with only trying one thing is, it's all you know. He may have a lot of data supporting one side, but can someone truly have a valid opinion if they don't have any experience with the other end of the spectrum? And maybe he does, I don't know. But that's where I land with all this stuff. All of us have been fed one side of the story for the majority of our hunting careers. I can now connect the dots logically in my head as to why a smaller cartridge/caliber could provide an advantage and I personally think it's worth exploring.

 

[WTFJohn]

There are no zealots like a convert.

Frankly the way Form and Avery have made it sound on here and on podcasts is that we’ve only been lucky and/or possibly irresponsible for using “big magnums” and/or monos.

The red text might just be the biggest stretch I've seen related to this topic.

Never once have I seen or read anything close to what you wrote from the S2H guys. In fact, I have heard recommendations to shoot monos in certain situations, and other times when a "big magnum" is recommended.

Anecdotally, I have had double digits of new/experienced hunters shoot my 6.5 for their first elk hunt with no issues from 0 to over 700 yds. Why would I hand them my 300WM instead? It's a physically larger gun, it recoils more, it burns more powder, and it offers me nothing at the ranges we hunt.

I've also shot plenty of stuff with my 300, including with monos. Everything ended up dead all the same, but from start to finish the 6.5 makes it easier on the shooter.

 

[Robobiss]

Think it’s funny Joseph has been hunting for a long long time all over the world and had compiled a large data set of his own. Killed lots of big African animals, elk, etc. s2h talks about data data data. But when there’s someone else with a large sample size of data out there, he’s just stupid cause his data set opposes yours? A lot of people on here just repeat or quote what’s said on the s2h podcast about small calibers so do they actually have an opinion or just repeating what they are told as well?

The RS/S2H crew touting the big game killing capabilities of cartridges much smaller than “conventional wisdom” says you should use is not saying that the big guns don’t work though. Quite the contrary. The big guns work, everyone knows that they work, because they are (pretty much) all that has been used for decades. Nobody is denying the efficacy of a 7mag on an elk or a moose. It kills them deader than a doornail. There are literally millions of data points in regards to this being true with the 7mag and similar cartridges.

What they are doing however is saying “these little bullets work too, with less recoil, and here is the proof in the form of hundreds of dead animals with horrific wounds”

There’s a big difference between doing something dozens, hundreds of times and saying it does not work or is ineffective. And saying something doesn’t work just because what you have always done does work, so there’s no way something else can be effective.
Those two things are not the same.

Case in point, my best friend is sold that anything less than a 30-06 is a compromise in regards to shooting whitetails. He has shot a lot of deer, but only with a 30-06. He legitimately is of the opinion that even a 308 will result in more wounded deer and/or less bang flops and longer tracking jobs. To the point that he had an optic failure last night and I offered him one of my 308’s that is sitting in the safe getting dusty with a Trijicon on it for him to use for the rest of the season instead of spending money around Christmas fixing his rifle. He declined because it’s not a 30-06 and he thinks the 308 is worse at shooting Whitetails at spitting distance with absolutely no data to support that theory.

I shot a big buck with a 223 last week with zero drama and zero tracking required and he thinks I’m crazy for it. But I did it because of the huge data set I saw on Rokslide that told me that it *would* work. I didn’t shoot the buck with a 223 because anybody told me that my 308 *wouldnt* work. Because everyone (besides my buddy at least) knows that a .30 cal will kill a deer.

A lot of these guntubers (I have not really consumed his content so I can’t say for sure) are speaking on things in which they have zero or very minimal experience and repeat “conventional wisdom” because that’s all they have ever followed and they are inexperienced with the other options.

 

[roosiebull]

Am I the only one who's noticed this? The two keep taking shots at each other every week. I think it's hilarious and I wish that they would get together on a podcast and sort it out.

It started a month or so ago. I know that he was brought up on the S2H podcast in terms of "authority" on game in relation to cartridge selection. Then I heard JvB talk some smack about "so called experts" using the 77tmk out of a 223. Then it was mentioned on S2H just recently within the past couple episodes.

The most recent release of the backcountry podcast JvB was reading viewer questions and read one about "a guy taking a giraffe with a 6 creed".

I for one would love to hear the podcast when these two hash it out. Let's make it happen!

I like the idea, besides one part… I would have to listen to jvb talk half of the time…. That’s a real hurdle for me

I might tough it out, but I remember trying to listen to one of his podcasts in the past and it was not happening, I might have made it 10 minutes.

And that was when my rifles still had leupolds on them, and I wanted a bullet that had good weight retention… and I still couldn’t handle him

I think he just has too punchable of a voice or personality for me

He is the epitome of a know it all fudd. If Ryan could guarantee at least some hostility, I would try

 

[roosiebull]

Can Aram VB join as well? I have just a couple questions, thanks. Nothing serious, just a couple of questions. about something.

This might not be the best time, the whole girl boss vibe has been a little weak so far this month…

 

[grizz19]

The RS/S2H crew touting the big game killing capabilities of cartridges much smaller than “conventional wisdom” says you should use is not saying that the big guns don’t work though. Quite the contrary. The big guns work, everyone knows that they work, because they are (pretty much) all that has been used for decades. Nobody is denying the efficacy of a 7mag on an elk or a moose. It kills them deader than a doornail. There are literally millions of data points in regards to this being true with the 7mag and similar cartridges.

What they are doing however is saying “these little bullets work too, with less recoil, and here is the proof in the form of hundreds of dead animals with horrific wounds”

There’s a big difference between doing something dozens, hundreds of times and saying it does not work or is ineffective. And saying something doesn’t work just because what you have always done does work, so there’s no way something else can be effective.
Those two things are not the same.

Case in point, my best friend is sold that anything less than a 30-06 is a compromise in regards to shooting whitetails. He has shot a lot of deer, but only with a 30-06. He legitimately is of the opinion that even a 308 will result in more wounded deer and/or less bang flops and longer tracking jobs. To the point that he had an optic failure last night and I offered him one of my 308’s that is sitting in the safe getting dusty with a Trijicon on it for him to use for the rest of the season instead of spending money around Christmas fixing his rifle. He declined because it’s not a 30-06 and he thinks the 308 is worse at shooting Whitetails at spitting distance with absolutely no data to support that theory.

I shot a big buck with a 223 last week with zero drama and zero tracking required and he thinks I’m crazy for it. But I did it because of the huge data set I saw on Rokslide that told me that it *would* work. I didn’t shoot the buck with a 223 because anybody told me that my 308 *wouldnt* work. Because everyone (besides my buddy at least) knows that a .30 cal will kill a deer.

A lot of these guntubers (I have not really consumed his content so I can’t say for sure) are speaking on things in which they have zero or very minimal experience and repeat “conventional wisdom” because that’s all they have ever followed and they are inexperienced with the other options.

Yes, I understand that. I did not word one of my comments on here very well. I wrote it out quickly in passing as I was leaving my parents house. What I’m trying to say is I see the data sets of the 6MM and they obviously work. I am not discounting their ability. I do think they have their limitations though. More so than larger calibers and they are not a “do it all” gun. I think a lot of the success of the 6 mm is based off of bullet selection and the bullets that Ryan and others are shooting. If bullet selection was limited to mono metal type bullets like it is in California im not sure they’d be having the success that they are with it. Whereas if you bump up to 7mm and larger, they have the case capacity to push just about any bullet fast enough to be lethal down range. I’m just saying there’s people out there who have seen or have data that they believe makes the 6mm light for elk at long range and it can’t just be discounted.

I’m not in the large caliber only camp by any means. My dad is a small caliber guy (257 Roberts and 6mm Remington) and we have these debates all the time and honestly I want that old 6mm one day to put a carbon barrel and a McMillan on it. Think it would be a super fun deer and antelope gun to pack around.

I listen to a lot of podcasts from all different sides of the debate. They all have an opinion and they all have their own data. Personally I’d rather see Broz from LRO or Brady Miller get on the pod. I think their personalities would blend better with Jake and Ryan and make for a better podcast. I think they could take the jabs and give them right back more so than JVB

 

[Megalodon]

Yes, I understand that. I did not word one of my comments on here very well. I wrote it out quickly in passing as I was leaving my parents house. What I’m trying to say is I see the data sets of the 6MM and they obviously work. I am not discounting their ability. I do think they have their limitations though. More so than larger calibers and they are not a “do it all” gun. I think a lot of the success of the 6 mm is based off of bullet selection and the bullets that Ryan and others are shooting. If bullet selection was limited to mono metal type bullets like it is in California im not sure they’d be having the success that they are with it. Whereas if you bump up to 7mm and larger, they have the case capacity to push just about any bullet fast enough to be lethal down range. I’m just saying there’s people out there who have seen or have data that they believe makes the 6mm light for elk at long range and it can’t just be discounted.

I’m not in the large caliber only camp by any means. My dad is a small caliber guy (257 Roberts and 6mm Remington) and we have these debates all the time and honestly I want that old 6mm one day to put a carbon barrel and a McMillan on it. Think it would be a super fun deer and antelope gun to pack around.

I listen to a lot of podcasts from all different sides of the debate. They all have an opinion and they all have their own data. Personally I’d rather see Broz from LRO or Brady Miller get on the pod. I think their personalities would blend better with Jake and Ryan and make for a better podcast. I think they could take the jabs and give them right back more so than JVB

Don't let these water carrying RS worshipers gaslight you. You are correct. Can't dispute the evidence, pictures, kills, etc that smaller than traditional calibers can work well on big game. BUT you're absolutely correct. There is an underlying sentiment from these talking heads and their cult members that if you use anything bigger than the absolute minimum necessary that you are an idiot and making the wrong decision and it will cost you game. The condescension is wildly obvious in their posts and it's majorly off putting.

But I guess it's understandable too, S2H is first and foremost a marketing company and represents a lot of what people on this forum claim to hate about the industry. Just crazy how a few drop tests and kill pictures can whip up a cult base so quickly.

 

[WTFJohn]

Yes, I understand that. I did not word one of my comments on here very well. I wrote it out quickly in passing as I was leaving my parents house. What I’m trying to say is I see the data sets of the 6MM and they obviously work. I am not discounting their ability. I do think they have their limitations though. More so than larger calibers and they are not a “do it all” gun. I think a lot of the success of the 6 mm is based off of bullet selection and the bullets that Ryan and others are shooting. If bullet selection was limited to mono metal type bullets like it is in California im not sure they’d be having the success that they are with it. Whereas if you bump up to 7mm and larger, they have the case capacity to push just about any bullet fast enough to be lethal down range. I’m just saying there’s people out there who have seen or have data that they believe makes the 6mm light for elk at long range and it can’t just be discounted.

Bullets matter, not headstamps. Stay within the velocity window where the bullet works. For monos that may mean a larger case size/caliber bullet, I don't think they have ever disputed that.

Don't let these water carrying RS worshipers gaslight you. You are correct. Can't dispute the evidence, pictures, kills, etc that smaller than traditional calibers can work well on big game. BUT you're absolutely correct. There is an underlying sentiment from these talking heads and their cult members that if you use anything bigger than the absolute minimum necessary that you are an idiot and making the wrong decision and it will cost you game. The condescension is wildly obvious in their posts and it's majorly off putting.

But I guess it's understandable too, S2H is first and foremost a marketing company and represents a lot of what people on this forum claim to hate about the industry. Just crazy how a few drop tests and kill pictures can whip up a cult base so quickly.

That's an impressively emotional argument for a topic that is ostensibly based on evidence, pictures, kills, etc.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Don't let these water carrying RS worshipers gaslight you. You are correct. Can't dispute the evidence, pictures, kills, etc that smaller than traditional calibers can work well on big game. BUT you're absolutely correct. There is an underlying sentiment from these talking heads and their cult members that if you use anything bigger than the absolute minimum necessary that you are an idiot and making the wrong decision and it will cost you game. The condescension is wildly obvious in their posts and it's majorly off putting.

But I guess it's understandable too, S2H is first and foremost a marketing company and represents a lot of what people on this forum claim to hate about the industry. Just crazy how a few drop tests and kill pictures can whip up a cult base so quickly.

There’s a difference between going out and doing something and just merely talking about it. There’s an open invitation for you or anyone else to go try and learn and see the differences. They are stark when actually put to the test, and this has been known LONG before anyone knew about Form, Avery, or shoot 2 hunt.

Your bias and “hate” towards whatever you think S2H may be, is glaring, obvious, and a bit embarrassing on your part honestly. I’ve listened to about half of one of their podcasts and two FF episodes. Everything mentioned that I heard can easily be proven by simply going out and shooting.

 

[mlevimadden]

Don't let these water carrying RS worshipers gaslight you. You are correct. Can't dispute the evidence, pictures, kills, etc that smaller than traditional calibers can work well on big game. BUT you're absolutely correct. There is an underlying sentiment from these talking heads and their cult members that if you use anything bigger than the absolute minimum necessary that you are an idiot and making the wrong decision and it will cost you game. The condescension is wildly obvious in their posts and it's majorly off putting.

But I guess it's understandable too, S2H is first and foremost a marketing company and represents a lot of what people on this forum claim to hate about the industry. Just crazy how a few drop tests and kill pictures can whip up a cult base so quickly.

Just addressing the bold part of your comment. I don't think the small-caliber cult (your words not mine) is calling people idiots for using anything bigger than the absolute minimum necessary. Below is my best shot at summarizing the posts I have read on the subject.

• Heavy-for-caliber match bullets make for better hit rates because of their high BC reducing the affects of environmental errors.
• Heavy-for-caliber match bullets create wound channels capable of killing any animal in NA all the way down to 22 caliber centerfire when used in their designed velocity range.
• Heavy-for-caliber match bullets are capable of expanding at lower velocities than monos and bonded bullets offering extended terminal range at the same muzzle velocity.
• Hit rates go down as rifle recoil goes up in field-shooting positions.
• Spotting your impacts in field-shooting positions becomes more difficult as recoil increases, and makes follow-up shots more difficult when they occur.
• People are more likely to practice and shoot more with smaller calibers that recoil less and are cheaper to shoot. Most hunters don't practice shooting in field positions nearly enough and could greatly improve their skillset by shooting more.

All of these items are demonstrable in practice and echo my experience.

 

[mtnbound]

Like others, I can't stand his voice and have yet to see actual data from him and others like you see on RS. Telling a story is not data to me, and I am always skeptical of anyone's opinion about a product when they are being sponsored or getting any reimbursement for their opinion. It's foolish if you are not testing new ideas, methods, and products for yourself and blindly following/believing anyone else,

 

[mlevimadden]

Also, put me in the camp of @Broz on the S2H podcast way before JVB. Broz actually has data to back up his positions and I think it would be a really interesting conversation on why he prefers a big 30 for his use case. I think he and the S2H crew are aligned on 90% of things, whereas JVB is just echoing conventional gun wisdom and whoever his top sponsor is that month.

 

[wind gypsy]

I doubt it would be uncivil. All one has to do is listen to the pap winkle podcast for a reference. Guy was a larger cartridge copper fan IIRC and its not like the conversation turned shitty over it.

 

[Live_weighT34]

The red text might just be the biggest stretch I've seen related to this topic.

Never once have I seen or read anything close to what you wrote from the S2H guys. In fact, I have heard recommendations to shoot monos in certain situations, and other times when a "big magnum" is recommended.

Anecdotally, I have had double digits of new/experienced hunters shoot my 6.5 for their first elk hunt with no issues from 0 to over 700 yds. Why would I hand them my 300WM instead? It's a physically larger gun, it recoils more, it burns more powder, and it offers me nothing at the ranges we hunt.

I've also shot plenty of stuff with my 300, including with monos. Everything ended up dead all the same, but from start to finish the 6.5 makes it easier on the shooter.

Not doubting the effectiveness of 6.5s, 6mm or the other small calibers and the rifles that fire them. I’m already on that bandwagon they’re great. I’ve used a 6 creed twice this year on elk & watched another elk get killed with the same gun. I’m building my second 6 creedmoor right now. Those 108 eldms are good medicine and I’m going to load the 115 DTAC nose rings for this new gun around 9lbs with a scope and can it’ll barely kick. I’m excited.

I have yet to hear or read any of that then, the only times I’ve seen/heard Form mention preferring monos is for doe antelope meat hunts. Avery states many times throughout s2h episodes that monos are neutering those magnums. And that just hasn’t been my experience on the 1 deer and 4 cow elk I’ve shot with a 180 Barnes TTSX out of a 300 win mag the deer ran the furthest after the shot & he died running.

The information is solid and they have data to back it up, it’s the presentation and side commentary that I’ve read and listened to that irks me.

 

[SloppyJ]

@SloppyJ - did the title of this thread change?

I don't think so. why do you ask? Honestly, I can't recall exactly what I typed but I think it hasn't.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

Don't let these water carrying RS worshipers gaslight you. You are correct. Can't dispute the evidence, pictures, kills, etc that smaller than traditional calibers can work well on big game. BUT you're absolutely correct. There is an underlying sentiment from these talking heads and their cult members that if you use anything bigger than the absolute minimum necessary that you are an idiot and making the wrong decision and it will cost you game. The condescension is wildly obvious in their posts and it's majorly off putting.

But I guess it's understandable too, S2H is first and foremost a marketing company and represents a lot of what people on this forum claim to hate about the industry. Just crazy how a few drop tests and kill pictures can whip up a cult base so quickly.

Hi pot, meet kettle. Lol

The "bigger is always better" crowd would never be condescending or inflammatory right? Lol

 

[WTFJohn]

Not doubting the effectiveness of 6.5s, 6mm or the other small calibers and the rifles that fire them. I’m already on that bandwagon they’re great. I’ve used a 6 creed twice this year on elk & watched another elk get killed with the same gun. I’m building my second 6 creedmoor right now. Those 108 eldms are good medicine and I’m going to load the 115 DTAC nose rings for this new gun around 9lbs with a scope and can it’ll barely kick. I’m excited.

I have yet to hear or read any of that then, the only times I’ve seen/heard Form mention preferring monos is for doe antelope meat hunts. Avery states many times throughout s2h episodes that monos are neutering those magnums. And that just hasn’t been my experience on the 1 deer and 4 cow elk I’ve shot with a 180 Barnes TTSX out of a 300 win mag the deer ran the furthest after the shot & he died running.

The information is solid and they have data to back it up, it’s the presentation and side commentary that I’ve read and listened to that irks me.

The reason they say a mono 'neuters' the magnums is because a mono needs a higher velocity to perform as designed, therefore you have less total effective range vs a heavy for caliber match (or similar hunting) bullet. In addition, a mono creates a smaller permanent wound channel than a heavy for caliber match bullet. None of that means it won't kill; I have killed elk, deer, antelope, and bear with monos with results just like yours.

Remove the emotional response to the presentation and side commentary. You said it yourself, the information is solid and they have the data to back it up.