At what yardage do you dial?

[derekbeaudry]

i used to use a true 200 yard zero for a few years and went back to 100 yard zero. I know my drops and dial when i feel i need to sometimes its 250 yards but normally its at 300 or so i use the reticle between 100 and 300 yards.

 

[Kotaman]

Not true, see below.






Do you actually zero at 200? I.E.- put up a two inch target for example, and at a 200 yard range make all of your rounds impact inside of that 2” target while aiming directly at it? Or, do you do what desertcj and almost everyone does, and zero a couple inches high at 100?





So let’s go through a thought process.

If you are fire a gun at an animal (or target) the goal is to hit it, correct? Well every shot has a hit rate, and it is never 100%. 100% certainty does not exist. With that, then we have to try and get as close to 100% as we can. To do that, you eliminate as many variables as possible The start of minimizing variables and in effect maximizing our hit rates on any target, at any range, is a solid zero.

Philosophically a zero is when your entire cone of fire (group) is landing point of impact directly on point of aim. You can not have a 200 yard zero, unless you are shooting 200 yards, and your mean point of impact (center of all rounds fired) is directly over your point of aim. If you zero “1.5” high at 100” you do not have a 200 yard zero. You at best have a 1.5” high at 100 yards zero.
To demonstrate this point- I see a hundred or so shooters a year that use something other than a 100 yard zero. I have never seen a single one that was actually zeroed at what they say they are. If they say they are zeroed at 250, they do not have their group centered over the target at 250 when we shoot. If they say “2 inches high at 100 yards”, we place a 1” circle centered two inches high over their aiming spot. Not one has ever put their rounds all in the dot- they are always off.


Let’s say you actually do get a perfect 200 yard zero at 200 yards. Do you account for wind drift? In my present location, with wind that is light for normal, there is a .3-.4 mil drift at 200 yards. If we had 20 guys from Rokslide on a range zeroing at 200, I would be utterly shocked if more than one or two accounted for the windage error. I would expect that everyone of them if they even thought about it would say “wind is light, no big deal”.

Do you account for errors in range? I’s the berm truly 200 yards? Or it 220 yards? What do you do if it is not exactly 200 yards?




So reason #1 for a 100 yards POA/POI baseline zero is: if we start with an error built in to our “zero” everything else will be built off of that error, and hit rates at all ranges will go down. Zero at 200 yards in a 5-6 MPH wind, or worse “zero” at 100 yards “x” high, have the target actually be at 215-220 yards instead of 200... and you can go from a 90% hit rate on a animal at 400 yards, to 50% hit rate REALLY quick and it takes a lot less small stuff than most think for it to happen.


Now what happens when you need to check zero? Could be just a pre hunt check, or because you dropped the gun and need to make sure it’s good? Following the principle of POA/POI from above, how often will you be able to find a 200+ yard range in no wind conditions to do so? If you can’t, do you just fudge it and hope?



The benefits of a 100 yard baseline zero (that means point of impact of all rounds fired is exactly centered over point of aim, and turrets slipped to “0”).


A 100 yard zero is within .1 of an inch, from 55’ish to 120’ish yards. What that means is following POA/POI principle is that I can make the bullets fall directly behind the crosshair at any range between 55 and 120 yards and have a 100 yard zero.

100 yards minimizes environmental effects such as wind, temp, barometric pressure, etc.

A 100 yard zero is the only “zero” that you are always dialing/holding “up” for. The bullet doesn’t cross your line of sight.

With scopes that work correctly (in this case a SS 3-9x), if I want to walk around hunting with the gun set to 250 yards, I simply dial “up .7 mils”. Now the crosshairs are hitting at 250 yards... or any other range I want.


Done logically and to maximize hit rates, there are no reasons for rifles with scope that dial to be baseline zeroed at anything other than 100 yards.

Gotcha...Thanks for taking the time to explain. I shoot a lot of rounds in a year. (not as many as you ) But more than the average guy. All of my rifles are "sighted in" (we'll use that term rather than "zeroed" since my way doesn't really fit your definition of "zeroed") at 200 yards in as close to windless conditions as possible. I fire 10 shot "groups". I don't subscribe to the "X high" at 100 theory and call it good at 200. I don't pay attention to exactly how high each of my guns is at 100 but I shoot them all at 100. Most of my shooting is done from 300-800 yards. This all from my home range with measured distances to berms. I am not a competition shooter, but a hunter that has taken his share of game. (Super Slam, a couple Grand Slams, 100+ whitetails) I guess the only reason I initially chose 200 yards vs. 100 yards was from "average shot distance". (which scientifically really makes no sense)

I see now, that it makes total sense to 100 yard zero based on your information. Like many here, I am 100% self taught on the longer range shooting game. I grew up with everything being "Kentucky Windage". I'm a decent long range shot but always looking for the little things to get even better. Problem is now to "rewire" myself to 100 yard zero. I have 8 custom rifles that all were sighted in to 200 yards and dial from there. HMMM...

 

[amassi]

Not true, see below.






Do you actually zero at 200? I.E.- put up a two inch target for example, and at a 200 yard range make all of your rounds impact inside of that 2” target while aiming directly at it? Or, do you do what desertcj and almost everyone does, and zero a couple inches high at 100?





So let’s go through a thought process.

If you are fire a gun at an animal (or target) the goal is to hit it, correct? Well every shot has a hit rate, and it is never 100%. 100% certainty does not exist. With that, then we have to try and get as close to 100% as we can. To do that, you eliminate as many variables as possible The start of minimizing variables and in effect maximizing our hit rates on any target, at any range, is a solid zero.

Philosophically a zero is when your entire cone of fire (group) is landing point of impact directly on point of aim. You can not have a 200 yard zero, unless you are shooting 200 yards, and your mean point of impact (center of all rounds fired) is directly over your point of aim. If you zero “1.5” high at 100” you do not have a 200 yard zero. You at best have a 1.5” high at 100 yards zero.
To demonstrate this point- I see a hundred or so shooters a year that use something other than a 100 yard zero. I have never seen a single one that was actually zeroed at what they say they are. If they say they are zeroed at 250, they do not have their group centered over the target at 250 when we shoot. If they say “2 inches high at 100 yards”, we place a 1” circle centered two inches high over their aiming spot. Not one has ever put their rounds all in the dot- they are always off.


Let’s say you actually do get a perfect 200 yard zero at 200 yards. Do you account for wind drift? In my present location, with wind that is light for normal, there is a .3-.4 mil drift at 200 yards. If we had 20 guys from Rokslide on a range zeroing at 200, I would be utterly shocked if more than one or two accounted for the windage error. I would expect that everyone of them if they even thought about it would say “wind is light, no big deal”.

Do you account for errors in range? I’s the berm truly 200 yards? Or it 220 yards? What do you do if it is not exactly 200 yards?




So reason #1 for a 100 yards POA/POI baseline zero is: if we start with an error built in to our “zero” everything else will be built off of that error, and hit rates at all ranges will go down. Zero at 200 yards in a 5-6 MPH wind, or worse “zero” at 100 yards “x” high, have the target actually be at 215-220 yards instead of 200... and you can go from a 90% hit rate on a animal at 400 yards, to 50% hit rate REALLY quick and it takes a lot less small stuff than most think for it to happen.


Now what happens when you need to check zero? Could be just a pre hunt check, or because you dropped the gun and need to make sure it’s good? Following the principle of POA/POI from above, how often will you be able to find a 200+ yard range in no wind conditions to do so? If you can’t, do you just fudge it and hope?



The benefits of a 100 yard baseline zero (that means point of impact of all rounds fired is exactly centered over point of aim, and turrets slipped to “0”).


A 100 yard zero is within .1 of an inch, from 55’ish to 120’ish yards. What that means is following POA/POI principle is that I can make the bullets fall directly behind the crosshair at any range between 55 and 120 yards and have a 100 yard zero.

100 yards minimizes environmental effects such as wind, temp, barometric pressure, etc.

A 100 yard zero is the only “zero” that you are always dialing/holding “up” for. The bullet doesn’t cross your line of sight.

With scopes that work correctly (in this case a SS 3-9x), if I want to walk around hunting with the gun set to 250 yards, I simply dial “up .7 mils”. Now the crosshairs are hitting at 250 yards... or any other range I want.


Done logically and to maximize hit rates, there are no reasons for rifles with scope that dial to be baseline zeroed at anything other than 100 yards.

Very true actually
I zero at 300, not some guess for mprb and it works fantastic.
There's more than 1 way to skin this cat and when done correctly I'm more comfortable with my system. Comfort in the field yields more dead critters for ME.
Many dozens of times over its paid dividends being able to range and shoot without having to touch a dial resulting in venison steaks instead of a story of the buck that snuck away.
I also prefer an aiming device with locking elevation turrets so simply dialing a 300 yard zero for walking around doesnt work for me personally.
To clarify: I shoot both ways and both are very effective when done correctly I still use a 100 yard zero for fun rifles and varmint hunting.

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[Cahunter805]

Form
Theoretically couldn’t a person zero at 100 then with a quality tracking scope dial the needed elevation for a 200 or 300 yard zero then rezero the turret?
Wouldn’t this be a better way to establish a 200 or 300 yard zero vs other methods mentioned above?

 

[Reburn]

Form
Theoretically couldn’t a person zero at 100 then with a quality tracking scope dial the needed elevation for a 200 or 300 yard zero then rezero the turret?
Wouldn’t this be a better way to establish a 200 or 300 yard zero vs other methods mentioned above?

Short answer no. Why would you want to rezero the turret anyways just leave it dialed for that hunt.

The purpose of zeroing at 100 is to reduce factors. Most specifically wind (cross while sighting in) and elevation, temp and pressure = Density altitude.

Why wouldn't you just zero at 100 and twist your turret to be what you want it to be. My 100 yard zero is perfect here in central Texas at a density altitude of 1900 ft. I've got a 3rd season mule deer hunt in new mexico in december which is at 6900 real elevation with an approximate density altitude of 8000 feet. My 100 yard zero is also perfect there too. But a 200 yard zero would start by introducing a 0.1 mil click inaccuracy into my dope.

My dope card for here show my 200 yard dial is 0.6 mil. but in new mexico its 0.5 mil. This small change matters. While I can still kill at 200 the hit probability starts decreasing. Remember one mil or moa isnt the same measurement at 100 yards or 200 yards its a measurement of an angle is all it is.

So when does this matter. Shooting my 6.5 bromoor at 600 yards my dope for here is 93.7" of drop. Now in new mexico its 85.7" of drop. Is 8" variance enough? At a grand here i 362.7" of drop but in new mexico its on 310.1" 50" difference of drop is huge.

The closer you can put the zero on your rifle the easier it is to compensate for changing enviromental factors that can make huge differences at longer ranges.

These mental drills are easy to run with a good ballistics calculator. And if you shooting at longer distance you should really be using one anyways.

 

[Cahunter805]

Short answer no. Why would you want to rezero the turret anyways just leave it dialed for that hunt.

The purpose of zeroing at 100 is to reduce factors. Most specifically wind (cross while sighting in) and elevation, temp and pressure = Density altitude.

Why wouldn't you just zero at 100 and twist your turret to be what you want it to be. My 100 yard zero is perfect here in central Texas at a density altitude of 1900 ft. I've got a 3rd season mule deer hunt in new mexico in december which is at 6900 real elevation with an approximate density altitude of 8000 feet. My 100 yard zero is also perfect there too. But a 200 yard zero would start by introducing a 0.1 mil click inaccuracy into my dope.

My dope card for here show my 200 yard dial is 0.6 mil. but in new mexico its 0.5 mil. This small change matters. While I can still kill at 200 the hit probability starts decreasing. Remember one mil or moa isnt the same measurement at 100 yards or 200 yards its a measurement of an angle is all it is.

So when does this matter. Shooting my 6.5 bromoor at 600 yards my dope for here is 93.7" of drop. Now in new mexico its 85.7" of drop. Is 8" variance enough? At a grand here i 362.7" of drop but in new mexico its on 310.1" 50" difference of drop is huge.

The closer you can put the zero on your rifle the easier it is to compensate for changing enviromental factors that can make huge differences at longer ranges.

These mental drills are easy to run with a good ballistics calculator. And if you shooting at longer distance you should really be using one anyways.

I guess I’m confused on what you are saying. Obviously your drop is going to be different from TX to NM but all that means is what you would dial for a given range will be whatever your ballistic program says to as it should calculate that for you given the changes in altitude. That shouldn’t change your 100 zero at all. You can also check/rezero once you arrive at your hunting location.I use Applied ballistics for my solutions and have had excellent results given I input the right info from my hunt location via a kestrel or gps.
I also understand the reasons why you would shoot/zero at 100 such as wind.

 

[Kotaman]

Short answer no. Why would you want to rezero the turret anyways just leave it dialed for that hunt.

The purpose of zeroing at 100 is to reduce factors. Most specifically wind (cross while sighting in) and elevation, temp and pressure = Density altitude.

Why wouldn't you just zero at 100 and twist your turret to be what you want it to be. My 100 yard zero is perfect here in central Texas at a density altitude of 1900 ft. I've got a 3rd season mule deer hunt in new mexico in december which is at 6900 real elevation with an approximate density altitude of 8000 feet. My 100 yard zero is also perfect there too. But a 200 yard zero would start by introducing a 0.1 mil click inaccuracy into my dope.

My dope card for here show my 200 yard dial is 0.6 mil. but in new mexico its 0.5 mil. This small change matters. While I can still kill at 200 the hit probability starts decreasing. Remember one mil or moa isnt the same measurement at 100 yards or 200 yards its a measurement of an angle is all it is.

So when does this matter. Shooting my 6.5 bromoor at 600 yards my dope for here is 93.7" of drop. Now in new mexico its 85.7" of drop. Is 8" variance enough? At a grand here i 362.7" of drop but in new mexico its on 310.1" 50" difference of drop is huge.

The closer you can put the zero on your rifle the easier it is to compensate for changing enviromental factors that can make huge differences at longer ranges.

These mental drills are easy to run with a good ballistics calculator. And if you shooting at longer distance you should really be using one anyways.

Interesting stuff...and mostly stuff I was not aware of. Thanks Reburn and Form.

 

[Reburn]

I guess I’m confused on what you are saying. Obviously your drop is going to be different from TX to NM but all that means is what you would dial for a given range will be whatever your ballistic program says to as it should calculate that for you given the changes in altitude. That shouldn’t change your 100 zero at all. You can also check/rezero once you arrive at your hunting location.I use Applied ballistics for my solutions and have had excellent results given I input the right info from my hunt location via a kestrel or gps.
I also understand the reasons why you would shoot/zero at 100 such as wind.

Correct on all accounts but your 200 yard zero has changed one click from density altitude change which introduces a variable into your dope.

My 100 yard zero has not had a change that could be expressed in a click for a 6000 DA change. Your zero has.

I understand what your saying and while i use strelok and not AB and a kestrel 5500 for weather and DA.

I can assume AB has a zero weather in it and is basing the current conditions against your zero conditions and removing the error. Strelok will do this as well.

But I chose to remove as many variables as I can from my mathmatical equasions and removing a zero that can have a click error when you have a 6K change in DA is preferable to me then to trying to math our the error. Does that make sense?

 

[Cahunter805]

Makes sense!

 

[Reburn]

Interesting stuff...and mostly stuff I was not aware of. Thanks Reburn and Form.

It's honestly all Form and not me. I have just read what he has written here and taken that as a base to build on and research and read a ton on long range shooting and ballistics. None of your big dog competitors for PRS or F-class zero at anything other then 100 and dial from there for the reasons I have said above. I have also been fortunate enough to have some coaching from members her and other places.

I did exactly like you for many years and killed piles of animals using kentucky windage and being lucky. I can say my lethality at extended ranges has increased with changing the way I do things.

further more what really opened my eyes is having my kestrel setup and open while I was shooting and having strelok running giving me solutions on a 4-8mph full value crosswind at 100 yards and it telling me that I already needed a click left............ at 200 it starts to get out there where it makes it damn near impossible to get a 200 yard zero unless the wind is dead at your back.

 

[amassi]

It's honestly all Form and not me. I have just read what he has written here and taken that as a base to build on and research and read a ton on long range shooting and ballistics. None of your big dog competitors for PRS or F-class zero at anything other then 100 and dial from there for the reasons I have said above. I have also been fortunate enough to have some coaching from members her and other places.

I did exactly like you for many years and killed piles of animals using kentucky windage and being lucky. I can say my lethality at extended ranges has increased with changing the way I do things.

Having a zero other than 100 is not Kentucky windage.
What does prs or f class have to do with hunting?

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[Reburn]

Having a zero other than 100 is not Kentucky windage.
What does prs or f class have to do with hunting?

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Like I said I used to use the 1" or 2" high at 200 yards for a 200 yard zero. Simple fact is having a zero other then a 100 yards is kentucky windage and this can be expressed mathmatically which I did above. When you get this you will understand.

Everything. If you want to learn how to shoot great distances why not learn from the guys that shoot great distances. Whats the difference on bullet placement, dope, windage and practical shooting skills between hunting and competition?

Do what works for you bud. I'm just simply not a fan of introducing known variables and error into complex math and hoping it works... if you want to have at it last I checked its a free country.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Valid points on using a 100 yard zero. However, there are times where it makes sense to do a 200 yard (or longer zero). I have a Swarovski Z5 with the Ballistic Turret. Once you set your zero (and zero stop), you are limited to 13.25 MOA of elevation. This may or may not be an issue based upon the ammunition, environmentals, and your shooting scenarios.

With a 200 yard zero on my 6.5 Creedmoor, my Z5 limits me to 645 yards; physically cannot dial any further. That is not that much from a practice perspective and still leaves about 100 yards of killing distance on the table. If I were to use a 100 yard zero, my Z5 limits me to just under 600 yards. Also, this leaves about 130 yards of killing distance on the table.

 

[desertcj]

Wow, you guys lost me! My 250yd zero/2" high at 100yds is just as accurate as your ranging 600yds, dialing and then expecting to connect. If what you're doing works for you, that's cool. All I know is that I sight my rifles in high at 100yds based on my ballistic app and when I range and dial my scope....hits happen and/or things die!

 

[Snowy]

I dial basically anything over 1 mil. For my rifles that's 300-350 yds, which is about where odds of having to hold wind start going way up.

 

[Reburn]

Valid points on using a 100 yard zero. However, there are times where it makes sense to do a 200 yard (or longer zero). I have a Swarovski Z5 with the Ballistic Turret. Once you set your zero (and zero stop), you are limited to 13.25 MOA of elevation. This may or may not be an issue based upon the ammunition, environmentals, and your shooting scenarios.

With a 200 yard zero on my 6.5 Creedmoor, my Z5 limits me to 645 yards; physically cannot dial any further. That is not that much from a practice perspective and still leaves about 100 yards of killing distance on the table. If I were to use a 100 yard zero, my Z5 limits me to just under 600 yards. Also, this leaves about 130 yards of killing distance on the table.

This is 100% correct. And that z5 will kill animals just fine out to 500 yards even with an introduced error into your math. At 600 I would start to become uncomfortable with my bullet steering system (scope) and math.

I chose to go to a scope that would dial further then I wanted to shoot and it wasnt the Z5. So I sold it. My brother still uses his and still kills great at 400 yards.

I can tell you that I reach my minimum expansion velocity on my bromoor at 750 yards at 1604 fps at a DA of 1800k out of a 21" barrel with a 143 gr ELD-X. So that is as far as I could reasonably kill with that gun. But I like to practice further so I changed scopes.

 

[mcseal2]

I use a 100yd zero on the 264 win mag and 300 win mag I big game hunt. I hunt with my scope dialed for 200 yards under the conditions present. I read Form's logic on the 100yd zero on another thread here a while back and it made a lot of sense to me.

I will always dial the elevation past 250 yards if there is time to do so. I can and have shot further without dialing, but if I have time I'll take the precision of a dialed solution and the confidence it brings me every time. It's eliminating variables that could help me to miss. I don't want help missing.

Before dialing scopes or ballistic reticles I always used the 1.5-2" high at 100 yards, whatever the chart said should be a 200 yard zero. I'd then shoot at 200, 300, and 400 with the rifle. I mentally learned the 6", 20", 40" rule (inches of drop with a 200 yd zero) for my holdovers and it was pretty close with all the guns I shot. I still dial my scopes to 200 yards when hunting because after all the years of shooting like this if I don't have time to dial, I can still make hits inside 400 yards this way.

Predator hunting and varmints I don't have dialing scopes on a lot of my guns yet. I'm moving that way, but good reliable scopes are expensive and it will take me time to get there. For now I set all the fast light bullet stuff not to rise over 2.8" at any point in it's flight path. It's a MPBR that I can use pretty well inside 300 yards with a 204, 22-250, 243, or 25-06. The 25-06 got a SWFA 3-15 last year so it's in the dialing category now. My AR I shoot 73gr ELD-M Supeformance ammo through is currently wearing a 3.5-10x Leupold with a B&C reticle, but it will probably be the next to get a scope upgrade.

 

[amassi]

Like I said I used to use the 1" or 2" high at 200 yards for a 200 yard zero. Simple fact is having a zero other then a 100 yards is kentucky windage and this can be expressed mathmatically which I did above. When you get this you will understand.

Everything. If you want to learn how to shoot great distances why not learn from the guys that shoot great distances. Whats the difference on bullet placement, dope, windage and practical shooting skills between hunting and competition?

Do what works for you bud. I'm just simply not a fan of introducing known variables and error into complex math and hoping it works... if you want to have at it last I checked its a free country.

Show your work
This isnt holdover guessing games-- both optics have a known zero
How is a 100 yard zero any different from a 300 yard zero?
A 600 yard shot gets dialed with both optics
One come up turns the knob slightly fewer revs
Both rounds impact at the same poi.

It isnt Kentucky windage if its known and repeatable. Your dope(correction)just starts at 325 instead of 125
Corrections past the zero get dialed just the same

Your "math" above was a false analogy with your field conditions (not the optics zero) not meshing with your dope chart.
This is a common misconception with new shooters
Your shot needs to be doped where your going to be firing in real time.
Range, wind, angle, temp, pressure and a verified ballistic coefficient(not from the mfg) all will effect poi.


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[Cahunter805]

From my understanding from Forms posts and others is this.
At 100 yards your group isn’t affected by factors like wind and your POA is more precise.
Lets say you are shooting 300 yards to set your zero and the average middle of your group is 1/2 MOA left. Was this due to a slight wind? Mirage? Your rifles load? Shooters ability? So do you adjust your scope the 1/2 to the right and shoot again? Now you dial the 1/2MOA and the next group is 1 MOA right because maybe the wind changed and also 1/2MOA high. Do you readjust back left 1MOA and down 1/2MOA?
I do understand the logic that you are still dialing the dope supplied by the ballistics program if you have a 100 or 300 yard zero but I now believe there is less of a margin of error factored into your initial zero if zeroing at 100 vs say 300.

 

[Kotaman]

I’m one of those guys “zeroed” at 200 has killed tons of game at yardage and I get it. By zeroing at 100 you limit variables. Limiting variables in long range shooting = limiting misses. End of story. I’ve never had it put to me like Form and Reburn did. Now, I get it...Will I change? Time will tell...but I’m always looking to improve.