Ashby Podcast, thoughts on shot placement and bullet construction

[ColeyG]

I can tell from my owning culling of hundreds of whitetails there is a distinct difference in a 53gr Barnes in a 223 vs 22-250 and I damn sure don’t want the slower 223 with Barnes from experience.

With that said I’d pick a 77TMK first and a 75 Eldm second every time in both calibers

I loaded up a bunch of .223 rounds using the 62gr Barnes TSX as a hunting bullet for my kids. Only two deployments so far. My son took his first and second Axis deer with them back in Feb.

Both animals were DRT. Thumb sized exit hole, minimal meat loss. I was very pleased as I wasn't quite sure what to expect out of the smaller bullets. Based on what I saw, I wouldn't hesitate to use them on larger animals like a whitetail or Caribou. Shot placement is obviously key.

Have you had bad experiences with Barnes out of the .223? If so, I would be curious to know more as my data set is pretty small at the moment.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I loaded up a bunch of .223 rounds using the 62gr Barnes TSX as a hunting bullet for my kids. Only two deployments so far. My son took his first and second Axis deer with them back in Feb.

Both animals were DRT. Thumb sized exit hole, minimal meat loss. I was very pleased as I wasn't quite sure what to expect out of the smaller bullets. Based on what I saw, I wouldn't hesitate to use them on larger animals like a whitetail or Caribou. Shot placement is obviously key.

Have you had bad experiences with Barnes out of the .223? If so, I would be curious to know more as my data set is pretty small at the moment.

I haven’t used the 62, only 53 and 50 in 223

I’ve had better and more consistent wound channels at 22-250 speeds when using Barnes. 223 killed with 53 gr TSX’s but it was just blahhh,…. And very blahhh on hogs

Once I switched to 77 TMK in 223 and 22 creedmoor, I sold the 22-250. 22-250 did have a faster twist though

I just disagree with Dr Ashby atleast from my experience with those two differences on impact spreads. I had similar experience with 257 wby w/80 TTSX vs 100gr at 300yards and under range, 80gr appeared to have a larger wound channels. I now preferred 115vld over 80&100 TTSX, even though 90% of time bullet is recovered under off side skin with VLD. It’s a distinctly more violent wound channel

May it’s a bell curve and I used impact speeds on the backside of the bell that are above what he did. I’m not sure as I havent had an impact under 2k with a Barnes. I know I’ve had impacts as high as 3700 with both 22-250 and 257wby in TTSX/tsx though and always they higher the impact velocity more damage

With the 223 and 22 cm I am now exclusive to 77TMK and 75 Eldm’s, but I will say 98% of my shots are qtr’ing two or higher shoulder now and they are very big wound channels. It’s perfect combo, but I don’t mind big holes in shoulders.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

took a minute to warm up to Ed but once he got rolling he won me over, great chat, I'm amazed at your ability to keep a discussion like that rolling Cliff and keeping it positive and value ad, I'd have turned that into a gong show in about 4 minutes haha, and also you're desire to continually learn even when you already know a ton

nothing new for info to this crowd, confirmed there's a formula required for whatever we chase and desired shade of death, where I wish it would go next is into numbers, study the knowns, get the formula's we can map out with numbers we DO have, see if anything could help us science it further, ie; numbers we DON'T have yet, like terminal coefficient, and start taking it the next steps to remove the need for long podcasts like that which are great for seating the concepts btw...

first time I seen the Tim guy but same with him, once he got rolling I liked him, you guys fit pretty well together

 

[Moose83]

Great podcast Cliff! Really enjoying you digging into the different schools of thought and trying to learn from each one and where each one might apply to different situations.

 

[BearBQ]

Hi Cliff, I would love to know what the impact velocity was for the TMK that stopped on the zebras hip. Thanks for doing the podcast.

 

[Beendare]

A lot of the Ashby stuff with arrows has been debunked in the last couple decades including the Very good video by Bill who makes the Iron Will BH's. I'm not so sure I would listen to Ashby on anything...though a stopped clock is right twice a day.....

 

[JoeK]

Can you expound on this a bit? or link the video from Bill? I've heard plenty of counterarguments to the idea of heavy arrows vs fast arrows and big cut mechanical vs high penetration fixed broadheads but his studies seem fairly rigorous and I haven't seen anything i would say "debunks" his findings or studies, merely disagreement on the pros vs cons of fast vs heavy arrow and large cut vs penetration.
Genuinely curious noob bowhunter here...

 

[nm.otter]

if I was back there doing that type of shorter distance hunting only, when in rome... I've been looking at CZ 550 375s and 416s. why not

Don't forget the 9.3x62mm, which may be the lightest-recoiling 'approved' stopping rifle down there.

 

[RME]

Don't forget the 9.3x62mm, which may be the lightest-recoiling 'approved' stopping rifle down there.

Some years ago a local gun shop had two used CZ 550 FS rifles in 9.3 x 62 and 6.5x55, exactly what I’d been looking for but at the time but could only afford one. Went home to think about which one to buy and decided I’d take the 9.3. Next day went in and the guy told me after I left another guy came in and said, “these are the two rifles I’ve been looking for” and bought both of them

 

[ShootOkHuntWorse]

I may have missed it @Cliff Gray what was the penetration depth through the ham of the zebra? Looking at my horse that’s a TON of meat to try to get through before the bone.

Maybe go full nerd and have round number two in the mag be a partition for a just-in-case hip shot. /joking/ (sorta)

 

[Cliff Gray]

Hi Cliff, I would love to know what the impact velocity was for the TMK that stopped on the zebras hip. Thanks for doing the podcast.

Would have been close to 2,100

 

[Cliff Gray]

I may have missed it @Cliff Gray what was the penetration depth through the ham of the zebra? Looking at my horse that’s a TON of meat to try to get through before the bone.

Maybe go full nerd and have round number two in the mag be a partition for a just-in-case hip shot. /joking/ (sorta)

I have a video of it. I’ll work on putting something together. It was close to my fist to my elbow… like 17-18”. Pure muscle. Yes, just like a horses ass.

There isn’t a game animal in North America with that potential until they open up wild horse season… That’s probably why I have some hesitation with the experience. It’s not a knock on the bullet. But it’s finding the case in which it isn’t ideal.

4 minutes later I stuck the same bullet through a shoulder and blew up both lungs.

 

[Bluumoon]

I have a video of it. I’ll work on putting something together. It was close to my fist to my elbow… like 17-18”. Pure muscle. Yes, just like a horses ass.

There isn’t a game animal in North America with that potential until they open up wild horse season… That’s probably why I have some hesitation with the experience. It’s not a knock on the bullet. But it’s finding the case in which it isn’t ideal.

4 minutes later I stuck the same bullet through a shoulder and blew up both lungs.

Feral Horse.

There is a really good thread “match bullets for hunting” or something like that, one of the better RS threads. Some really good discussion of wound channel shapes for the different types of bullet.

Beyond the 16”+ penetration for 77TMKs I honestly don’t remember how far other bullets penetrated. There was discussion of mono metal/copper bullets may not exit as frequently as many believed compared to cup/core r/t the “mushroom” having more surface area and elastic skin catching them.

I suspect penetration may be similarly limited at higher speeds when the copper bullets “flower” as advertised and as discussed in the podcast penetration would be increased (wound channel decreased) with low speed impacts ( which also holds true for cup and core).

Partitions in particular were identified in that thread as having the fewest “number of failures” when impact speeds are adequate.

As you guys said, incredibly nuanced and fun to dork out on. Personally I suspect I lost my 1st elk to lack of adequate shooting skills, but also not understanding limits of mono metal bullets as fps needed for upset.

 

[Forkasauras]

Maybe I missed it @Cliff Gray , or I wish you would have asked was there a difference in time to death/distance traveled between the 22 hornet and 22-250 culls.

But for the JVBs of the world, a 22 hornet will not only kill, but exit a cape buffalo. A .223 should be able to go through a beef knuckle.

 

[North of 60]

Thx much Cliff for continuing to bring good info to the hunting world.

I've been a big Ashby fan for over 25 years with his work on improving penetration with arrows. I still use those boringly dependable long 2 blade grizzly broadheads to ensure good penetration.