Arrow Penetration Issue

[LDJ]

I have had penetration issues the last 2 years on elk hunts. The first year I made a bad shot at 40 yards. About 2/3s up just behind the last rib. I was mortified that I shot that far back, but as he ran away and I saw how much of my arrow was sticking out I was shocked. Only about 8 - 10 inches was in him. That year I shot a Mathews HTR at 70 lbs 29" draw with 4mm FMJ 340 at 29" long. Wtih a 125g Muzzy 3 blade.

The next year the bow stayed the same but I changed the arrow a little. FMJ 5mm 340 at 29" with 75g brass insert and 100g Solid broadhead. I chronoed this set up at 243 fps with a total arrow weight of 536g. I shot this elk at 20 yards with a slight quarter towards me and down hill 10 feet. The arrow landed higher than I wanted. It was slightly behind the shoulder and half way up the body. Again I was shocked when I saw the elk turn to run away and again I only had 8-10 inches of penetration.

The guys in camp suggested I switch to a Slick Trick. They are not much different than a Muzzy I used 2 years ago.

Just looking for some advice on my set up to see if there is anything I need to change so this is not an issue next year.

Thanks

 

[ahlgringo]

There is nothing “wrong” with either of your arrow setups for elk. This is the tough, cliche answer- but- its all about shot placement. Elk are tough. I have made a very similar shot as your first with a 515 g vap v1 and a slick trick head going 285 fps out of 80lb limbs- with the same results. Too high is an issue- next time you cut up an elk- look how low the spine is in the thoracic region. Halfway up the body is almost too high- much more than that and you have a real chance of a non-recovered animal. I personally have shot and recovered 2 elk with broadheads lodged and broken off the in the backstrap from at least the year before. Only one was a Muzzy head


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[Fire_9]

With that heavy of an arrow I would say your broadheads were dull. If it were me I'd screw on a two blade single bevel. Get them sharp and you won't have any penetration issues

 

[LDJ]

The broadheads were brand new out of the box. No way they were dull. I had the same idea with the 2 blade on the second year. The "Solid" Broadhead is a 2 blade single bevel. I question the strength of the Solid now though.

One of my other thoughts was to go with an 80 lb draw next year.

 

[roadrunner]

I got a complete pass through on a 6x6 this year at 27 yds with a 392 gr arrow going 295 fps tipped with a 100 gr Slick Trick Standard, 15% FOC.

Same result on a very large cow (4x4 - 5x5 size bull) with a 400 gr arrow going 305 fps at 32 yds tipped with a 100 gr Wac'em Standard, 15% FOC.

How is your arrow flight? That will make a huge difference...

 

[elkguide]

Sounds like a possible arrow flight issue and/or an arrow placement issue.

 

[mfllood3800]

Your arrow speed isn't that great. But even still, at a right location it will work, as it did in the early days of archery hunting with even lower speeds. Yet faster speeds allow us to have a bit bigger area of poor shot placement. Not so much with archery as with rifles, but it still exists.
Any animal hit in a front shoulder blade or thicker bones will likely stop any arrows penetration.

With that said, if you didn't hit dense bone, something else is going on.

Good chance , as stated above, you have a tuning issue with the bow sending arrows with tail wag?


When you shoot at the target blocks do you see all the arrows perfectly straight or are they kind of off to one side or the other, up or down, or even inconsistent in how they are sticking out of the block?

I shot my Bull this year a bit back. Arrow was a pass thru 40 yards beyond where he was standing..
I shot a Cow last year at 82 Yards, 4" below the spine above the kill zone, pass thru, same with lots of deer at over 70 yards, Spike elk at 55 etc...

My arrows fly as perfectly true as I can get with my bows.
I shoot 472 grain arrows at 295 fps.
But the key is they don't wobble in the air.

I had one deer years ago, at 60 yards, with same bow, send an arrow and it looked like a poorly thrown football with no spiral to it at all. That arrow stuck in that deer only about 4". He ran off and I never saw him again. I did hit him forward, but the arrow was visibly not flying correctly.
I decided to learn and master bow tuning from then on.

Paper tuning will tell you what you need to know right now.
Go shoot an arrow thru paper and see how it is flying.

Spin test the arrows with your broadheads on them and see if there is a visible wobble to them.
Make sure all fletching is glue and tight.

Start with what you can control and go from there.
We want you tagged out, not scratching your head.

 

[bowtech3dhunter]

I have had penetration issues the last 2 years on elk hunts. The first year I made a bad shot at 40 yards. About 2/3s up just behind the last rib. I was mortified that I shot that far back, but as he ran away and I saw how much of my arrow was sticking out I was shocked. Only about 8 - 10 inches was in him. That year I shot a Mathews HTR at 70 lbs 29" draw with 4mm FMJ 340 at 29" long. Wtih a 125g Muzzy 3 blade.

The next year the bow stayed the same but I changed the arrow a little. FMJ 5mm 340 at 29" with 75g brass insert and 100g Solid broadhead. I chronoed this set up at 243 fps with a total arrow weight of 536g. I shot this elk at 20 yards with a slight quarter towards me and down hill 10 feet. The arrow landed higher than I wanted. It was slightly behind the shoulder and half way up the body. Again I was shocked when I saw the elk turn to run away and again I only had 8-10 inches of penetration.

The guys in camp suggested I switch to a Slick Trick. They are not much different than a Muzzy I used 2 years ago.

Just looking for some advice on my set up to see if there is anything I need to change so this is not an issue next year.

Thanks

It might not actually be your set up but more of an animal anatomy issue. Your first shot that far back is almost a gut shot, and elk eat so much grass it would essentially be like shooting into a bale of hay. The second shot quartering to you (not high probability shot in first place) could have had similar issues especially if that elk had been feeding recently.


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[Beendare]

Arrow and bow weight are good...you are probably borderline underspined but thats not the reason for your problems.

Could be a a couple things, best to start with the bigges...and work your way down the list;

Poor arrow flight is numero uno- even a slight imperceptible wobble in flight will give you poor penetration. Do you BH tune? If not THAT probably has a lot to do with it.

Poor form at the moment of truth can also cause poor arrow flight...and poor penetration. I've seen some horrible arrows shot at animals from some otherwise pretty good shooters. Hunt clothing can also have an impact on this.

Poor arrow assembly- are you checking the alignment of your BH's on a jig....this matters. A BH that isn't perfectly centered will give you bad arrow flight.

My guess is its one or all of the above....

 

[Felix40]

Has to be arrow flight issues. I dont understand how your bow is that slow but it should still be fast enough. I shot through a cow with a recurve and a 550gr arrow doing 180fps. So you have plenty of power. If your arrows are flying straight and broadheads are sharp you should have no issue.

 

[LDJ]

Thanks for all the replies!!

I think I need to start on tuning. I have noticed when the arrows are sticking out of the target they are not all going in the same direction. I haven't noticed any tail movement when the arrow is flying but it could be minor. When I bought this bow it was the first bow I had bought in 5 years. I set the previous one up and tuned it myself. Never changed anything in 5 years. When I bought the Mathews the guy at the shop said paper tuning was outdated and not needed. I called bullshit at first but he convinced me after dialing it quickly that it was set up perfect.

Another thing that happened last summer that I dismissed was a carbon arrow exploding on the target. I have never used carbon arrows because of the pictures of broken arrows going through peoples hands. I decided to try some gold tips and the first one I shot hit the target and explodes off to the left. I thought that was confirmation that carbon was crap. Threw them in the trash. My arrow may have hit at an angle and broke.

I will shoot it through some paper this weekend and start there.

Thanks,

 

[mfllood3800]

I begin shooting broad heads a few weeks before my hunt. I use field tips around Jan/Feb and shoot almost each day up to that month prior with those. But I never, Ever, go out hunting without first shooting every broad head tipped arrow that goes in my quiver. I shoot them, group them, re sharpen them and they go in my quiver, and then I shoot my practice broad heads the rest of the time prior to the hunt, with the actual hunting broad heads to be used, mounted in my quiver as I shoot.
I have weighed all my parts and pieces and found variable weight differences. I try to get all my arrows weighing within 3 gr of each other. But in the end, if they group good, no reason for all that.
I just have a system and stick with it cause it works.

Develop your own system for bow tuning, arrow set up, and enjoy this as part of the process. It's crazy fun.

 

[TheTone]

I think shot placement has a ton to do with what you've experienced. Shoot them behind the shoulder broadside and you'll have dead elk.

 

[jmez]

I think shot placement has a ton to do with what you've experienced. Shoot them behind the shoulder broadside and you'll have dead elk.

Agree.

 

[roadrunner]

Shot a small 6x6 one year and had a poor release. The arrow looked like a sidewinder missile all the way and only penetrated about half way. Luckily it was enough to slice the liver and make him go slow enough for a follow up double lung and heart shot.

So I know arrow flight has a big impact on penetration, as has been said by many on this thread. Broadheads don't do well when entering "sideways".

 

[Dameon]

With your setup, you shouldn't have any problems with penetration, but I agree your shot placement is not the best. That aside, I think you have some tuning issues that need to be addressed. So let's start at the beginning and work our way up from there.

1) Lets get your bow close and then fine tune it. With a draw board, verify your draw length and that the cams are hitting the stops at the same time. For Hoyts 3 years old or older, having the top cam hit first by 1/16th to almost an 1/8th inch is okay. For your Matthews, you would want them hitting at the same time. If you don't have a draw board, find a shop that does or build one yourself. If you have a press, you can adjust the timing and sync of your cams at this point. If you don't have a press, find a shop that is willing to work with you. Verify that your arrows are the correct spine and length for your setup. Use Archer's Advantage or OnTarget2 software to fine tune your arrow build. If in doubt, go heavier on spine and weight.

2) Centershot and nock height. Set your center shot so that if you ran an arrow against the riser parallel to a nocked arrow on your rest, they would be indeed be parallel. A tiny clamp to hold the arrow to the riser helps. I don't know the optimum setting for a Matthews, but for a Hoyt it is about 13/16ths from the riser. For nock height, it is always a great place to start with your arrow running level.

2) French Tune/Modified Walk Back Tune: Get yourself a target and set it on a stand so that it is at shoulder height. Run a plumb bob line down the center of the target. At 6ft with your bow level with the target, try to put an arrow through the string. Adjust your sight until you are putting arrows perfectly through the string. That sets the base windage on your sight, now we need to adjust your base centershot to how you shoot. Back up to 10 feet. Try to split the string again but make adjustments with your rest. A little goes a long way. You should be pretty darn close without any adjustments, if you are, back up to 10 yards, and fine tune your centershot by making very tiny adjustments to your rest. If this were a Hoyt, I prefer to adjust the yokes, but you get the picture. Now would be a good time to also rough in your sight pins.

3) Bareshaft tuning. Don't do this unless you have great repeatable form or you will be chasing your tail. If you are primarily a hunter, then skip this step and proceed straight to broadhead tuning. Using the same target at shoulder level, pick a dot and shoot one fletched arrow. Make sure it is a good release and the shot feels good to you. Now strip the fletching off another arrow, and shoot it at the same dot. Are they grouping together? Is the bare shaft hitting the target straight? On a bow with yokes, if the arrow is slightly right or left and high, put a 1/2 twist in the same side yoke that you want the arrow to move. This will move the POI down and over. If you need to move POI left or right only, take 1/2 twist out of the opposite side you want the bare shaft to move and 1/2 twist into the side you want it to move. If the arrow is low, add twists to the control cable. If the arrow is high, add twists to the buss cable or equal twists to each yoke end of the buss cable. For binary cam bows, as long as you are reasonable close in POI with bare shafts and fletched arrows, make very very very tiny adjustments to the rest. If you are off by a lot, it is time to shim the cams and a good shop can help you with that. If you can't get your bare shafts to move the way you want them, then you have arrow spine issues. Either reduce point weight, add weight to the back end, or pick a heavier spine arrow.

Broadhead tuning: At 10 yards, pick a spot. Shoot one fletched field-point tipped arrow. Retrieve the arrow and mark the POI with a piece of tape. Repeat with your favorite broadhead. If it hit the tape, you are good, back up to 20 yards and repeat. If not, make super super tiny adjustments with your rest. If your broadhead tipped arrow is way off, you may have an arrow spine issue or sloppy form. Repeat again and only count shots that feel good. Once you have broad heads hitting with field points, go ahead and backup and verify that your broad heads fly true at your maximum effective range.

Fine tune the sight and the shooter: Don't get close, get perfect. You just fine tuned your bow, if you miss.......you are to blame. Practice, practice, practice and figure out your maximum effective range. Get those pins perfect. Get your second and third axis perfect. Get good enough that robin hoods become a regular thing if you stupidly shoot groups at anything less than 30 or 40 yards. Know for a fact that if you have an animal giving you a good shot opportunity at anything less than your max effective range, you will be having fresh meat for dinner. BE CONFIDENT IN YOURSELF AND YOUR EQUIPMENT.

 

[Beendare]

Probably the best analogy on how an arrow works is through vectors.

If you think of your arrow as a row of ball bearings then you can see how important perfect arrow flight is- see diagram. The arrows penetrating force is multiplied many times when all of the ball bearing [the actual arrow weight] is focused behind the BH. Conversely, you lose a huge amount of an arrows energy if its not flying perfectly straight.

When the arrow hits at a slight angle, you no longer have a multiplying force of the whole arrow...but now every segment applies a vector force only partially to the segment in front of it.


I had my son do the actual math on this vector force [way beyond my paygrade!]...and numbers wise- its significant.


The physics of it is the same using a train or water pressure in a pipe [Water Hammer] ...anything with mass...they all act the same. Fletching helps of course...and this is the reason why we sometimes hear guys saying they get better arrow effectiveness on longer shots as their arrow flight has had time to correct.

 

[LDJ]

Wow guys!!! Thanks for taking the time to help me out. I will start working on tuning this weekend. Really appreciate the advice. Opened my eyes to some pretty obvious issues I have.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks

 

[cuerro viejo]

Wow guys!!! Thanks for taking the time to help me out. I will start working on tuning this weekend. Really appreciate the advice. Opened my eyes to some pretty obvious issues I have.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks

Wouldnt hurt to go to a two blade single bevel like a kudo point, cuttthroat etc.

They out penetrate everything for me but I’m not in love with blood trails,

 

[Jeff Martin]

Probably the best analogy on how an arrow works is through vectors.

If you think of your arrow as a row of ball bearings then you can see how important perfect arrow flight is- see diagram. The arrows penetrating force is multiplied many times when all of the ball bearing [the actual arrow weight] is focused behind the BH. Conversely, you lose a huge amount of an arrows energy if its not flying perfectly straight.

When the arrow hits at a slight angle, you no longer have a multiplying force of the whole arrow...but now every segment applies a vector force only partially to the segment in front of it.
View attachment 62473

I had my son do the actual math on this vector force [way beyond my paygrade!]...and numbers wise- its significant.


The physics of it is the same using a train or water pressure in a pipe [Water Hammer] ...anything with mass...they all act the same. Fletching helps of course...and this is the reason why we sometimes hear guys saying they get better arrow effectiveness on longer shots as their arrow flight has had time to correct.

I 100% agree and that is why FOC is totally overblown! I have seen some heavy FIC arrows fly like crap. My best penetrating arrows have been around 11%.

I recently heard John Dudley on a pod cast state he was getting better arrow flight out of a small FIC% despite him wanting a larger number. That is my experience completely! I am shocked at the really smart archers chase weight and throw it out the window with poor arrow flight. Weight is important but not at the detriment of good arrow flight. Give me a 30 grain lighter arrow and a smaller FOC % with good arrow flight any day over a heavy brass insert “just because said too”


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