Arizona does away with auction tags

MattB

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Surprised about what? That I read the article quickly? I didn’t say a thing about the money or tags in my post that you replied to but you took it back to money. Two peas in the same pod as far as reading goes?
Not surprised that some who are asking for proof that the deployment of auction tags proceeds improves hunter opportunity in defense of their position on auction tags haven’t taken the time to click on a link to understand how those funds have been used in the past.

It'll still be "Sheep Money" in theory there is a real opportunity for the lottery to raise even more money as the price of participation is more reasonable to broader percentage of sportsmen.

No Im not optimistic they will, especially at first.
Does anyone have the “so you’re telling me there’s a chance?” meme from “Dumb and Dumber” they can insert here?
 

MattB

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Did anyone else get the emails for AZGFD about the limited entry permits they are offering? The email includes:

“The objective is to generate revenue in order to maintain current operations, and limit or eliminate the need to increase license and hunt permit-tag fees.”

I wonder if this has any connection to the auction tag discussion? The statement above provide insight on the Department’s appetite to increase tag and license fees to fill any future funding deficits, which some here thought would be the path of least resistance.
 

Blackcow

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This is the 3rd year they’ve had the draws for these hunts. I don’t have the numbers handy, but while they don’t make much off of the tags, it seemed like they made bank off of the app fees.
 

CorbLand

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Did anyone else get the emails for AZGFD about the limited entry permits they are offering? The email includes:

“The objective is to generate revenue in order to maintain current operations, and limit or eliminate the need to increase license and hunt permit-tag fees.”

I wonder if this has any connection to the auction tag discussion? The statement above provide insight on the Department’s appetite to increase tag and license fees to fill any future funding deficits, which some here thought would be the path of least resistance.
I am pretty sure they did the exact same thing last year. I will check my email tomorrow when I am at a computer.
 

MattB

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I am pretty sure they did the exact same thing last year. I will check my email tomorrow when I am at a computer.
Correct. This is not the first time the dept has done this sort of draw. The emails says it is discretionary and employed when they have a funding gap that needs to be addressed.
 

CorbLand

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Correct. This is not the first time the dept has done this sort of draw. The emails says it is discretionary and employed when they have a funding gap that needs to be addressed.
If they did it last year and the year before. I think it would be a stretch to think it is in anyway connected to the auction tag thing going on now.
 

180ls1

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If you really think people spend this kind of money because they care, take away the ability to write it off on taxes and see if they still spend 750,000.00 for a deer tag. These auctions are a better indicator of how the economy did the previous year than what the Fed tells you.

I believe they do in fact care. When you pay $750K for a write off tag you still LOSE that $750K to save some on taxes. People in this position could find FAR more advantageous places to put their money from a financial standpoint.
 

CorbLand

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I believe they do in fact care. When you pay $750K for a write off tag you still LOSE that $750K to save some on taxes. People in this position could find FAR more advantageous places to put their money from a financial standpoint.
Like I said, let a C4 org auction one off and if it fetches the same amount, I will eat my crow. I hope I have to.
 
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If they did it last year and the year before. I think it would be a stretch to think it is in anyway connected to the auction tag thing going on now.
They’ve done it a few times before, more than once a year I think. I think the frequency has been increasing and will continue too.
 

MattB

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They’ve done it a few times before, more than once a year I think. I think the frequency has been increasing and will continue too.
It looks like they have done it the past 3 years, and it suggests a funding gap which is unfortunate.
 

tpicou

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Like I said, let a C4 org auction one off and if it fetches the same amount, I will eat my crow. I hope I have to.
Some SCI auctions go for astronomical amounts and you can very rarely write those off (and the ones you can aren’t big ticket items). I haven’t been able to write any off because the money, despite going to a non-profit, is usually less than the sticker price associated with the trip itself if you were to just pay for it.

In the US it’s different as the animals don’t have prices outside of the tag value, so depending on you’re writing the check to it could qualify. But, in my experience people with money who want to do something will still buy it if they want to regardless of tax implications. I mean, I would.
 

sneaky

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For those saying it is “class envy” and “being mad at the guy in the Ferrari at the stop light.” The major difference here is that the average hunter doesnt supplement the funding for Ferrari that then someone comes in and uses their money to bypass the system and utilize.

Quite frankly, auction tags are directly in opposition to the North American Model of Conservation.

If you really think people spend this kind of money because they care, take away the ability to write it off on taxes and see if they still spend 750,000.00 for a deer tag. These auctions are a better indicator of how the economy did the previous year than what the Fed tells you.

Overall, I think the handful of tags are worth the funding they bring in but animals are owed by the people and if the people don’t want it, they can do away with it.
Um, nope. You're wrong on this one. Anyone who supports Ferrari in F1 or WEC and buys Ferrari gear is helping fund the machine. They make hundreds of millions of dollars off of those supporters, 99.9% of whom will never own a Ferrari. They absolutely play a part, no different than the average Joe buying points and gear that benefits P-R funds. How many of those regular license sales does it take to add up to ONE of these auction tags? Is it these guys buying the tags that's the issue? Or the douchebag outfitters that is the issue? I would venture it's the latter far more than the first. Adding ONE tag back into the general pool isn't going to change draw odds in the least, people are still going to complain about it. If there's one thing that sportsmen are good at, it's complaining that someone does something different than them so they must suck.

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sneaky

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Shane Mahoney is wrong about this one.

It is disingenuous to imply that these auction tags raise money that would otherwise be unavailable. The money that is gained through auction tags can be easily replaced by increasing the cost of the average hunting license.

I read that Arizona raised 3.2 million on all of their auction tags combined last year. There are ~350,000 hunting licenses sold in the state. It only takes $9 per hunter to replace all that auction revenue.

I know that putting the auction tags back into the general pool will not significantly increase odds for the average hunter. I don't have any problem with a person who has been successful in life and can afford to buy one of these auction tags. I still prefer that tags for a public resource are distributed through a process that puts everyone on equal ground.

I'll also admit that another reason why I do not like auction tags is because I think it fosters an arrogance among the various organizations that hold the auction and the hunters wealthy enough to buy them. They seem to enjoy lording their contribution over the average sportsman. They like to point out how much we "need" them and their money. I'm sorry but I'm not going to pat any of them on the back when for less than $10 per hunter they can be replaced.
Sure, go right ahead. In Idaho, the last time they tried raising tag prices by $5 everyone raised immortal hell about how the state was screwing them. You overestimate the average sportsman's willingness to pay more for a license or tag.

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Blackcow

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That’s funny. There’s a difference between people complaining about a price increase, and people not paying it. Idaho could have raised it 20 bucks and people would have flipped out, and then paid it. There’s no alternative cheaper “product” to buy, and not one state in this country has reached price equilibrium.
 

MattB

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That’s funny. There’s a difference between people complaining about a price increase, and people not paying it. Idaho could have raised it 20 bucks and people would have flipped out, and then paid it. There’s no alternative cheaper “product” to buy, and not one state in this country has reached price equilibrium.
But there are alternatives to the people who make the decisions. Most politicians/political appointees are more concerned about re-election/re-appointment than doing the unpopular thing even when it is the right thing.
 
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OMB

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Um, nope. You're wrong on this one. Anyone who supports Ferrari in F1 or WEC and buys Ferrari gear is helping fund the machine. They make hundreds of millions of dollars off of those supporters, 99.9% of whom will never own a Ferrari. They absolutely play a part, no different than the average Joe buying points and gear that benefits P-R funds. How many of those regular license sales does it take to add up to ONE of these auction tags? Is it these guys buying the tags that's the issue? Or the douchebag outfitters that is the issue? I would venture it's the latter far more than the first. Adding ONE tag back into the general pool isn't going to change draw odds in the least, people are still going to complain about it. If there's one thing that sportsmen are good at, it's complaining that someone does something different than them so they must suck.

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This isn't to single you out, because I've seen the argument from several other posters, but by taking that one or two tags out of the general pool and letting the same handful of people stroke a check for it, how many tags has that added over time to the general pool?

I know there's specific examples of what the funding goes to, but over the last 20-30 years across the west, are there more or less tags being issued for species that have a governor's tag in each state? Unless there's any kind of major correlation between tags going for big dollars and increasing population numbers, I personally find it difficult to justify the headaches that come from the optics of a billionaire with an outfitter posse taking the cream off the top every year.

I don't have a problem with auction tags, but at some point somebody has to stay "hey guys, what are we actually solving for here and is it working, or is it welfare for a small number of outfitters?"
 

MattB

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This isn't to single you out, because I've seen the argument from several other posters, but by taking that one or two tags out of the general pool and letting the same handful of people stroke a check for it, how many tags has that added over time to the general pool?

I know there's specific examples of what the funding goes to, but over the last 20-30 years across the west, are there more or less tags being issued for species that have a governor's tag in each state? Unless there's any kind of major correlation between tags going for big dollars and increasing population numbers, I personally find it difficult to justify the headaches that come from the optics of a billionaire with an outfitter posse taking the cream off the top every year.

I don't have a problem with auction tags, but at some point somebody has to stay "hey guys, what are we actually solving for here and is it working, or is it welfare for a small number of outfitters?"
That’s been covered.
 

OMB

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That’s been covered.
What am I missing here? I've read every post in this thread twice at this point and outside of desert bighorns, there's not a convincing argument that auction tags have done anything to grow the pie for general tags.

Let's even set sheep aside for a moment. Are there more or less deer/elk/antelope tags being issued in Arizona today than there were in the last 10/20/30 years? What about for Utah/Wyoming/Nevada/etc?

If the answer is that things would be so much worse without auction tags, that's fine, but it's not a fact based argument. I'm the biggest free market capitalist on the planet and I'm happy that Jimmy Liataud or Doug Sayer or Will Waldrip or Denny Austad or name the other same 25 people that have a pile of money and spend it on auction tags. But I'm also not going to sit here and blindly say, "Yeah, their ability to toss $700k at shooting a tame mule deer on Antelope Island put more mule deer on the ground for everyone else today."
 

MattB

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What am I missing here? I've read every post in this thread twice at this point and outside of desert bighorns, there's not a convincing argument that auction tags have done anything to grow the pie for general tags.
There are more desert and Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep tags, there are more elk tags (although my sense is there is not much more habitat that AZGFD wants them to expand into so this has an upper bound), and deer and antelope tags have been declining. It isn’t really possible to tie increased tags directly to dollars raised, so you are not likely to find a convincing argument. My sense is if people will take the time to see what the dollars are being used for and then ask themselves if they believe those activities are likely to help grow herds or help protect the resource on the downside (ie. partially mitigate the impact of drought), they can make an informed decision as to the merits of auction tags.
 
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There are more desert and Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep tags, there are more elk tags (although my sense is there is not much more habitat that AZGFD wants them to expand into so this has an upper bound), and deer and antelope tags have been declining. It isn’t really possible to tie increased tags directly to dollars raised, so you are not likely to find a convincing argument. My sense is if people will take the time to see what the dollars are being used for and then ask themselves if they believe those activities are likely to help grow herds or help protect the resource on the downside (ie. partially mitigate the impact of drought), they can make an informed decision as to the merits of auction tags.
By "informed decision" you mean agree with you. LOL Give it a rest bud, you aren't gonna convince anyone. Time will tell. If in 5 years, AZGFD has a funding shortfall of 2 million dollars, you can say I told you so. If they do not, you are gonna have to eat Raven.
 
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