Are you overbowed? Let's have a discussion

[tater]

Heavier bows become easier to shoot when proper form (including back tension) is learned. This reduces strain on bicep tendons and other high risk connective tissues. When there is true alignment, higher poundage is manageable (whereas it is impossible without good form and that's when we see the short draw/snap shooting become prevalent).

Heavier bows are a lifestyle, like the video pointed out.

They take commitment and ongoing work (including self awareness and countering of ego contrary to a post above) to ensure that accuracy and health don't suffer. Knowing one's body and limitations is key.

A lot of long time heavy bow shooters bridge up and down with weight over the course of a year just like any other athletic training depending on available time, goals, etc.

Despite the legacy of some gents that "went big or went home" in the past, there are a few long time heavy bow shooters with good form and better yet good shoulders after a long time of doing it (Leo Markert was accurately shooting ASL's that were 70#+ right up until his passing a few years ago at age 75).

But it is an ongoing commitment, and not for those who only have a couple of hours a week to shoot and are not also engaged in other forms of physical activity.

Archery is a personal journey and what works for one may not work for all.

 

[Foggy Mountain]

I have two words…International limb fittment.

Isn’t that 3 words? Hmmm lol

 

[Wilderlife]

Heavier bows become easier to shoot when proper form (including back tension) is learned. This reduces strain on bicep tendons and other high risk connective tissues. When there is true alignment, higher poundage is manageable (whereas it is impossible without good form and that's when we see the short draw/snap shooting become prevalent).

Heavier bows are a lifestyle, like the video pointed out.

They take commitment and ongoing work (including self awareness and countering of ego contrary to a post above) to ensure that accuracy and health don't suffer. Knowing one's body and limitations is key.

A lot of long time heavy bow shooters bridge up and down with weight over the course of a year just like any other athletic training depending on available time, goals, etc.

Despite the legacy of some gents that "went big or went home" in the past, there are a few long time heavy bow shooters with good form and better yet good shoulders after a long time of doing it (Leo Markert was accurately shooting ASL's that were 70#+ right up until his passing a few years ago at age 75).

But it is an ongoing commitment, and not for those who only have a couple of hours a week to shoot and are not also engaged in other forms of physical activity.

Archery is a personal journey and what works for one may not work for all.

Thanks for taking the time to type that up and engage with the content mate.

Yes, very much about lifestyle for me. And that's not a brag about being an active person; it's more a dig at people who sit behind a keyboard and watch a video of me shooting and just throw out comments like "who needs that power? You can't shoot it accurately!"

It prompts me to want to engage with them and ask "what do you know of me and my life?"

The reason most people don't shoot over 60# is because it requires a lot of work to be proficient, without injury. The only reason someone may want to work towards this is purely a personal choice for them and if they enjoy it, what gives anyone the right to criticise?

Enjoying an active lifestyle with a lot of hiking, hunting, firewood cutting, gym workouts, etc, is the way I like to live my life and it makes my archery journey easier.

 

[bisblue]

I'm a newer traditional shooter, shot compound before that. I also have rock climbing shoulders, ie strong but tweaked.

Between Tom Clum's course and some really good pt instruction this year I got my form and body better. Mostly with the pti can shoot more and evaluate soreness better to use stretching earlier on.

I shot several different set ups via used ILF, and found border SR limbs at 58# we're just too much for me. And Morrison Max SR limbs at #45 were getting fairly easy.
I broke down and got new Morrison limbs to fall at 50-52#, as I felt those with a 625Gr arrow could handle an elk. I'm still getting used to them but think I can shoot as much as I'd like with good form, and be able to hold some elk hunting.
It is nice to have my slightly lighter limbs though if I've taken a break and want to do some practice. I also have some super lightweight 35 lb limbs that I've broken out just to double check my form sometimes.
For me when I'm over bowed I just lose that accuracy, and can't help but going to target panic.

 

[Newtosavage]

To each his own, but I prefer a “lighter” bow. I like to get into alignment and have plenty of time to hold and aim if I need to. Plus, I’m not shooting any further than 25 yards at an animal.

What a lot of those guys who are short-drawing and snap-shooting (because they are overbowed) don't realize is that they will get the same arrow speed, and potentially even more, if they drop 5-10# in weight and utilize their full draw length by achieving alignment.

When I short-drew and snap-shot, I was shooting a 62# recurve drawn to just 29" for 65# on the fingers. When I dropped 10# and learned to get into proper alingment, I was sending the same arrow downrange at the same speed but I was shooting 55# at 31.5".

The most power under the draw force curve comes at the end of the draw. One inch there equals several inches of draw at the lower end.

I wish more people understood this. It would save a lot of shoulders.

 

[Newtosavage]

Thanks for taking the time to type that up and engage with the content mate.

Yes, very much about lifestyle for me. And that's not a brag about being an active person; it's more a dig at people who sit behind a keyboard and watch a video of me shooting and just throw out comments like "who needs that power? You can't shoot it accurately!"

It prompts me to want to engage with them and ask "what do you know of me and my life?"

The reason most people don't shoot over 60# is because it requires a lot of work to be proficient, without injury. The only reason someone may want to work towards this is purely a personal choice for them and if they enjoy it, what gives anyone the right to criticise?

Enjoying an active lifestyle with a lot of hiking, hunting, firewood cutting, gym workouts, etc, is the way I like to live my life and it makes my archery journey easier.

A lot of guys can handle bows over 60 or even 70 lbs... for a while. They are also the ones who typically complain about shoulder issues later in life. That's a generalization and I know some guys in their 50's and even 60's who can actually still handle bows over 60 lbs., but not many. And by "handle" I mean be in complete control of the bow at full draw.

There was a period for about 20-25 years that if you handed me a 70# longbow and asked me to draw and hold it for a full minute, I could have done that. Learning to achieve proper alignment is like having "cams" on your traditional bow. Most folks, including yourself, aren't in proper alignment so they won't be able to draw and hold very long without using a LOT of muscle. Even then, they won't be able to do it many times in a row. Not that it's necessary to do that in a hunting situation, but it illustrates my point of being in complete control of the bow. Sometimes, as N ID Stickbow points out, it's advantageous in a hunting situation to be able to draw and hold for a little while, for an animal to step out behind cover, etc.

This is the main reason (in addition to learning bows over 60# were simply not necessary for someone with my draw length) I dropped to bows in the 50-52# range. I can draw when an animal is behind cover so they don't see me draw, then wait for them to step out. Or, I can wait for that front leg to move forward - things I couldn't really do when I shot 65#.

You are a few years into your "stickbow" journey and obviously are learning a lot and enjoy sharing what you learned. You clearly work hard and enjoy the process which is what's required to be successful with stickbows. I applaud that and I look forward to following your progress.

 

[North Idaho Stickbow]

What a lot of those guys who are short-drawing and snap-shooting (because they are overbowed) don't realize is that they will get the same arrow speed, and potentially even more, if they drop 5-10# in weight and utilize their full draw length by achieving alignment.

When I short-drew and snap-shot, I was shooting a 62# recurve drawn to just 29" for 65# on the fingers. When I dropped 10# and learned to get into proper alingment, I was sending the same arrow downrange at the same speed but I was shooting 55# at 31.5".

The most power under the draw force curve comes at the end of the draw. One inch there equals several inches of draw at the lower end.

I wish more people understood this. It would save a lot of shoulders.

I completely agree! After the Rod Jenkins clinic I went to, I’m a big believer in lower poundage bows. Rod says he’s killing deer these days with a 35 pound bow, and takes 20 yards shots and under. I’m more than comfortable with my ~47 ish pounds at elk.

 

[Newtosavage]

I completely agree! After the Rod Jenkins clinic I went to, I’m a big believer in lower poundage bows. Rod says he’s killing deer these days with a 35 pound bow, and takes 20 yards shots and under. I’m more than comfortable with my ~47 ish pounds at elk.

Rod's a good man who gets it. He's helped a lot of people.

 

[Wilderlife]

More good discussion. Thanks everyone!

I agree that I'm not in proper alignment all the time and it's something I'm continuing to work in with all of my bows. The thing that's different with the longbow is that I find myself subconsciously leaning forward in order to keep the string away from my clothing, so I need to focus on not doing that. My longbow is 66 inches and my other bows are 60 inches.

Most of the time I feel like my alignment is on my bones as I feel the sensation of being locked in pretty well and don't collapse a great deal, but being new to everything I still make mistakes and I am constantly working on things. Hence the video, in that it's also a way of marking my progress.

Regarding the whitetail and elk with bows in the 35-45 pound range, I obviously can't comment. The fallow deer we have here are similar in size to whitetails and mulies but I've never killed one with a bow. All I've shot is feral goats and pigs with bows (so far - compounds and trad bows) and it's actually really interesting to see just how tough a decent boar can be. Not saying tougher than an elk or anything, but the nature of pig hunting in my area tends to have me lean towards a slightly heavier bow than I would for the deer or goats. Not just because they're tough but also because they behave differently. I got a nice boar a few months back with my 62# bow and the arrow lodged in his off-side shoulder.

 

[sneaky]

Great contribution to the discussion mate!

So, did you watch the video?

No. It's his MO, show up, spout nonsense, then disappear.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[oldgoat]

No. It's his MO, show up, spout nonsense, then disappear.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Well, he is Canadian!

 

[Foggy Mountain]

Guys you’re giving her too much credit. Just remember the “if they don’t matter you won’t mind” and hit ignore. Let them talk to themselves cause what’s said don’t matter. Why subject yourself to that

 

[Sapcut]

The common light tradbow shooting preference because heavy bows aren't "needed" spill is a cop out. Funny how most of the same light tradbow shooters these days once shot a 70# compound o a regular basis. Why you reckon the 70#s wasn't "needed" back when? Because they could then and now they can't so it isn't "needed". Just speak the truth.

 

[mattflint]

I over bowed myself this year pretty bad.
Proved out to be a great thing imo. Covers my crappy release real well.
I cant snap shoot, or release the string before a stupid long shot process. Sometimes wish I could speed the process up.
Could only get a few good shots at a time when my bow 1st showed up a few months ago. Not so bad now.
Only reason I see for dropping weight now is to get a closer point on, or to go to a shoot with many targets. I dont enjoy groups of people at all so the later is not in the cards and a closer point on could be achieved with a heavier arrow.
Very well could change my mind on this. For now though while I am just figuring this crap out high 50s low 60s will be my jam.

 

[Foggy Mountain]

I over bowed myself this year pretty bad.
Proved out to be a great thing imo. Covers my crappy release real well.
I cant snap shoot, or release the string before a stupid long shot process. Sometimes wish I could speed the process up.
Could only get a few good shots at a time when my bow 1st showed up a few months ago. Not so bad now.
Only reason I see for dropping weight now is to get a closer point on, or to go to a shoot with many targets. I dont enjoy groups of people at all so the later is not in the cards and a closer point on could be achieved with a heavier arrow.
Very well could change my mind on this. For now though while I am just figuring this crap out high 50s low 60s will be my jam.

Buddy if I could? I understand what you’re saying a heavy bow may pull the string from your fingers better but that alone is not justification for most to overbow. Imo over bowing it at a point where the weight negatively affects you and your shooting. Most times guys when overbowed don’t simply have an issue shooting more shots. They typically have lots more. I understand building up, that’d be different imo.
The release thing should be corrected. I’d advise never to use equipment to “fix” something.
Get a string bow and work on form, release is a big part of that.

 

[mattflint]

Buddy if I could? I understand what you’re saying a heavy bow may pull the string from your fingers better but that alone is not justification for most to overbow. Imo over bowing it at a point where the weight negatively affects you and your shooting. Most times guys when overbowed don’t simply have an issue shooting more shots. They typically have lots more. I understand building up, that’d be different imo.
The release thing should be corrected. I’d advise never to use equipment to “fix” something.
Get a string bow and work on form, release is a big part of that.

I fully agree with what you are saying. I
Think the ideal situation is a lighter bow for learning this stuff. Im sure I could benefit from some time behind a lighter bow.
I had my heart set on a bow from Big Jim. With elk season fast approaching, and having decided to shoot lefty to accommodate eye dominance. I had to take what I could get. That was a bow that pulled around 60#. I was insane nervous about getting it as its also very short in contrast to my dl. On top of being new to trad and only ever having but a couple ilf and a das bows.I figured Id be screwed.
I had to bust my butt out there.
At the end of the day I figured it out. Keeping the basics in mind and being aware of my limitations. I can now draw, anchor expand through my clicker and shoot a good shot on out to my point on.
I guess my point would be. Im a knucklehead as Id guess many of a similar mind are. A heavy bow wont destroy our chances of building a decent shot, just slow it down some… unless that weight is so much that full draw is not possible. I can absolutely see your point in that
This is all coming from a guy with a year of traditional experience under my belt. Just my opinion per what Ive experienced. Im sure in a few years Ill look at things differently once I have more experience to pull from. Idk

 

[Foggy Mountain]

I fully agree with what you are saying. I
Think the ideal situation is a lighter bow for learning this stuff. Im sure I could benefit from some time behind a lighter bow.
I had my heart set on a bow from Big Jim. With elk season fast approaching, and having decided to shoot lefty to accommodate eye dominance. I had to take what I could get. That was a bow that pulled around 60#. I was insane nervous about getting it as its also very short in contrast to my dl. On top of being new to trad and only ever having but a couple ilf and a das bows.I figured Id be screwed.
I had to bust my butt out there.
At the end of the day I figured it out. Keeping the basics in mind and being aware of my limitations. I can now draw, anchor expand through my clicker and shoot a good shot on out to my point on.
I guess my point would be. Im a knucklehead as Id guess many of a similar mind are. A heavy bow wont destroy our chances of building a decent shot, just slow it down some… unless that weight is so much that full draw is not possible. I can absolutely see your point in that
This is all coming from a guy with a year of traditional experience under my belt. Just my opinion per what Ive experienced. Im sure in a few years Ill look at things differently once I have more experience to pull from. Idk

The ideal situation to learn on is a string bow bud. You can make one free w a bootlace or paracord piece

 

[Wilderlife]

The common light tradbow shooting preference because heavy bows aren't "needed" spill is a cop out. Funny how most of the same light tradbow shooters these days once shot a 70# compound o a regular basis. Why you reckon the 70#s wasn't "needed" back when? Because they could then and now they can't so it isn't "needed". Just speak the truth.

I see people in some of my circles saying 70# compounds aren't needed all the time. You also see people talking about using lighter compounds with well-tuned arrows in a similar sort of way to trad bow shooters.
A lot of the flack about heavier trad bows also has an interesting historical comparison when we see people like Fred Bear and others using fairly heavy bows. When people bring that up they also need to acknowledge that a lot of those older shooters were snap shooters and the quality of bows and components now is very different to back then. Arrow material, broadhead design, etc.

 

[Wilderlife]

I fully agree with what you are saying. I
Think the ideal situation is a lighter bow for learning this stuff. Im sure I could benefit from some time behind a lighter bow.
I had my heart set on a bow from Big Jim. With elk season fast approaching, and having decided to shoot lefty to accommodate eye dominance. I had to take what I could get. That was a bow that pulled around 60#. I was insane nervous about getting it as its also very short in contrast to my dl. On top of being new to trad and only ever having but a couple ilf and a das bows.I figured Id be screwed.
I had to bust my butt out there.
At the end of the day I figured it out. Keeping the basics in mind and being aware of my limitations. I can now draw, anchor expand through my clicker and shoot a good shot on out to my point on.
I guess my point would be. Im a knucklehead as Id guess many of a similar mind are. A heavy bow wont destroy our chances of building a decent shot, just slow it down some… unless that weight is so much that full draw is not possible. I can absolutely see your point in that
This is all coming from a guy with a year of traditional experience under my belt. Just my opinion per what Ive experienced. Im sure in a few years Ill look at things differently once I have more experience to pull from. Idk

If I can add anything as someone else who is a relative newcomer it is that a lighter bow when you aren't familiar with what things are supposed to feel like is a very good idea. Also, at the risk of sounding like a gym junkie, if you don't lift weights and don't really know what getting into your back is supposed to feel like, a lighter bow is a great idea.
I injured my shoulder briefly early in my trad 'career' because I thought I knew what back tension was but in reality I didn't and I compensated for back tension by pulling with my shoulder at release. A horrrible way to shoot but it took me a bit to realise. Getting a lighter bow so I didn't necessarily had to pull so hard and it could really settle me down in my back and allow me to feel EXACTLY what back tension was supposed to feel like was a good way to go for me. I'm not syaing everyone needs to do this at all but holding a heavy bow steady at full draw for a long time is difficult so it's nice to be able to hold a lighter bow at full draw for a little while and experiment with tension of different muscles.

 

[Sapcut]

I see people in some of my circles saying 70# compounds aren't needed all the time. You also see people talking about using lighter compounds with well-tuned arrows in a similar sort of way to trad bow shooters.
A lot of the flack about heavier trad bows also has an interesting historical comparison when we see people like Fred Bear and others using fairly heavy bows. When people bring that up they also need to acknowledge that a lot of those older shooters were snap shooters and the quality of bows and components now is very different to back then. Arrow material, broadhead design, etc.

Yes, It is possible to make a deer “dead” with just about any bow weight on the market with any field point on the market, with a perfect shot. But that certainly is not the thought process here.
If an arrow hits an animal and stops or slows down enough to not penetrate the vitals, then the bow and/or arrow build was not “enough”. Unfortunately, very few bowholders think in this manner or care enough about killing AND recovering. Most care more about reaching and hitting the animal than they do about reaching and blowing thru the animal.