Anyone paying attention to Michigan?

[craigrh13]

Surprise! There's a late push for Earn a second buck! Some commissioners want it to be on the honor system(just report a doe tag as harvested) statewide or just LP. some want mandatory check in and only for a few high cwd counties in zone 3 or all of zone 3.

 

[SirChooCH]

Surprise! There's a late push for Earn a second buck! Some commissioners want it to be on the honor system(just report a doe tag as harvested) statewide or just LP. some want mandatory check in and only for a few high cwd counties in zone 3 or all of zone 3.

Honor system would be tough as much as I like to trust people are good until proven otherwise. They mentioned EAB in the last NRC meeting but the DNR said it would take 5 years to allow it in the app...not sure why? Possibly they want a feature like Kansas where you would have to submit a photo of the deer as proof before allowing the next tag for sale? Idk.

 

[craigrh13]

No way in hell would I trust the honor way. Not with how many garbage ass hunters we have here. I was on the phone with one of the commissioners today about this. I told them the only way I could even remotely support it is if it was zone 3 only, only does(no spikes or button bucks) and Mandatory physical check in.

 

[Scandiacus]

Surprise! There's a late push for Earn a second buck! Some commissioners want it to be on the honor system(just report a doe tag as harvested) statewide or just LP. some want mandatory check in and only for a few high cwd counties in zone 3 or all of zone 3.

Thanks for the info! Can you earn the second buck before getting the first? In other words, could you shoot a doe in the Early Antlerless season and then go into the Regular Firearm Season with two buck tags ready to rock?

I'm all for cracking down more on CWD.

Unrelated, but are you able to share if eliminating the Limited Firearm Zone is still holding majority support?

 

[KenLee]

State of Oklahoma: "Hey Michigan, Hold my Beer!"

Oklahoma Is Now Releasing Pen-Raised Deer into the Wild as Part of a Vast CWD Experiment

Under a new and highly controversial law, Oklahoma has started releasing pen-raised deer into the wild in an effort to combat CWD.

www.outdoorlife.com

Our legislature is the world wide center of clown science with legislators that own deer farms.

Heck, they'd need to be released into subdivisions to have a chance against predators in most areas.

 

[craigrh13]

Thanks for the info! Can you earn the second buck before getting the first? In other words, could you shoot a doe in the Early Antlerless season and then go into the Regular Firearm Season with two buck tags ready to rock?

I'm all for cracking down more on CWD.

Unrelated, but are you able to share if eliminating the Limited Firearm Zone is still holding majority support?

Like I said. This is still one of many idea being bounced around. I had heard that it would require the purchase of the combo. I wouldn't think it would matter when the doe was shot. But again, still in the planning and discussion phase. I would be very surprised if something like this actually happens.

Based on what I know and have been told the limited rifle zone is going away. But like anything else that could change. I've banked on the change and have offloaded all but 1 of my straight walls and wood almost all of my ammo to get ahead of it.

 

[Scandiacus]

Based on what I know and have been told the limited rifle zone is going away. But like anything else that could change. I've banked on the change and have offloaded all but 1 of my straight walls and wood almost all of my ammo to get ahead of it.

Roger that, thanks! Makes sense to sell complete rifles now before the value craters. I don't have any complete straight wall rifles I would plan to offload, but I'm absolutely chomping at the bit to re-barrel my 350 Legend AR, and maybe pick up another bolt gun in a proper caliber. Because I've always expected the straight wall rules would go away some day, I've been very picky about what rifles I've bought for deer hunting - just a 357 lever gun that I enjoy for its own sake regardless of regulations, and that 350 upper which is just a barrel-swap away from any other AR-15 compatible cartridge. But I'm waiting for May 13 before doing anything.

 

[Rich M]

Did harvest across the board drop to dismal numbers matching your personal observations?

I don't trust any hunter who thinks thier 10 days in the field a year gives them more knowledge than the across the board collective data. Now if the data has been manipulated to fit the narrative that's a far different concern.



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That’s fine. Really dont care what you think. We saw a lot of deer, state had doe slaughter and then very few deer seen for 10 years. Somehow they disappeared.

The folks we hunted with went from regularly shooting large bucks to hunting out of state. Was a large enough case study for me.


Why do folks get uptight about the winter kills? Same thing, just not hunters doing the dirty work.

 

[SirChooCH]

I emailed in about earn a buck saying I thought it was off the table from DNR perspective. One of the commissioners replied and said they can't do it statewide without legislation change to the tags, but some of them are looking into a "pilot program". Idk what that would mean, like cwd counties could be opted into it or something? But it can't legally be done currently for statewide change.

 

[gjs4]

Its great the state is trying to engage in something...but how efficient is their DMV line? Its not, nor will this. Casting generic approaches (because most of our hunting kin are idiots...lets face it) will lead to three deadly groups; Those that : follow the law but believe the laws will arrive at their desire outcomes, those that will continue to do whatever they want and those that remain disappointed. Hopefully the majority of hunters will land in group one with metered expectations. Serious hunters, and biologists, will fall in the last- never being satisfied and unable to control the regs in a timely manner. Most folks would take a handout check to stay home over working for it and use the math for reference. Not everything is tangible, should be equal for all, or numbers related. The change in regs pushing for more common outcomes will just push the bell curve in from both the left and right 25% quartiles.

 

[craigrh13]

I emailed in about earn a buck saying I thought it was off the table from DNR perspective. One of the commissioners replied and said they can't do it statewide without legislation change to the tags, but some of them are looking into a "pilot program". Idk what that would mean, like cwd counties could be opted into it or something? But it can't legally be done currently for statewide change.

Correct. It was discussed trying it in a few counties where CWD is highest. I'm not sure if they actually will do it though.

 

[SirChooCH]

Got an email back today saying those new "quiet period" rules for November before the gun seasons won't be on the vote. So that's a plus.

Like some mentioned already on here, I am trying to decide what's worth keeping if rifle rules are changed. I would have an obsolete 12ga slug gun, 400 legend, and 450 bm upper laying around...

 

[Scandiacus]

Like some mentioned already on here, I am trying to decide what's worth keeping if rifle rules are changed. I would have an obsolete 12ga slug gun, 400 legend, and 450 bm upper laying around...

A 12 gauge is always useful, especially if it's one you can swap barrels on. Those uppers are also just a barrel swap away from any other AR-compatible caliber you could want, and it's cheap and easy to do if you or a buddy have the right tools.

 

[magicishmike]

This is such a heated topic honestly, and I love that we can all come together and speak intelligently. That being said, as a hunter in Michigan, I don't even kill a buck every year, sometimes because I don't even have an opportunity, other times because I pass on smaller bucks early on. What I don't know, but have seen thrown around a number of times is that it seems the goal is to produce better quality bucks, but then there's people saying that becoming a one-buck state, regardless of APR's, won't necessarily make us a better state.

At the same point...if you enact both laws (APR and OBR), I could see the population growing. There's also the other side of the line that says we just need to kill more does.

Is there any truth to any of this? Any science behind it? Lol or is it just throw it out there see what sticks?

 

[Netherman]

Anecdotally and looking at states that have enacted similar legislation OBR (IN) and or APRs (PA) those changes will improve buck quality. The only devils advocate argument I could think of would be more mouths on the landscape reducing potential, but I think higher age class would outshine malnutrition and likely only be a concern in UP and NLP due to limited AG land. Another pro argument is that it would increase doe harvest which may help the more mouths concern noted above. Not sure I believe that doe harvest will increase (or needs to statewide).

I don't support either regulation because I don't want to trade opportunity for bigger racks. I think hunters should be able to "hunt their own hunt" and shoot whatever makes them happy. If the hunters that want these changes put their arrows where there mouths are we wouldn't need to add regulation to see the results they are looking for.

It makes me laugh when you hear the pro crowd say "I bought the combo last year, but hunted like it was a single" - Josh Arbogast. Sure seems like they want the increased opportunity as well.

 

[magicishmike]

Anecdotally and looking at states that have enacted similar legislation OBR (IN) and or APRs (PA) those changes will improve buck quality. The only devils advocate argument I could think of would be more mouths on the landscape reducing potential, but I think higher age class would outshine malnutrition and likely only be a concern in UP and NLP due to limited AG land. Another pro argument is that it would increase doe harvest which may help the more mouths concern noted above. Not sure I believe that doe harvest will increase (or needs to statewide).

I don't support either regulation because I don't want to trade opportunity for bigger racks. I think hunters should be able to "hunt their own hunt" and shoot whatever makes them happy. If the hunters that want these changes put their arrows where there mouths are we wouldn't need to add regulation to see the results they are looking for.

It makes me laugh when you hear the pro crowd say "I bought the combo last year, but hunted like it was a single" - Josh Arbogast. Sure seems like they want the increased opportunity as well.

Totally agree with the fact you should be able to shoot what makes you happy. This is what gets kids involved and excited about hunting. Even having some exceptions for the youth hunt, or for youth under a certain age at the very least...

But part of the "opportunity" portion could be the problem as well. I didn't hunt as much as I normally do last year, the year prior I had my buck down on Oct. 5th, and hunted 3 of the first 5 days to get him because I spent more time scouting. However, I had a combo, and didn't end up being able to use my other tag, and honestly hardly had a chance to. Even on a doe...if increasing the APR or OBR rule helps me get my kids out to at the very minimum see more deer, and have the opportunity at a doe, I wouldn't complain either. Note; I mostly hunt public land which can be more difficult for sure.

 

[Netherman]

But part of the "opportunity" portion could be the problem as well. I didn't hunt as much as I normally do last year, the year prior I had my buck down on Oct. 5th, and hunted 3 of the first 5 days to get him because I spent more time scouting. However, I had a combo, and didn't end up being able to use my other tag, and honestly hardly had a chance to. Even on a doe...if increasing the APR or OBR rule helps me get my kids out to at the very minimum see more deer, and have the opportunity at a doe, I wouldn't complain either. Note; I mostly hunt public land which can be more difficult for sure.

I think your two year ago story demonstrates why I like the combo license and feel it increases opportunity. You shot a buck you were happy with and were then able to continue to hunting for a second. Sure you could still hunt for does, but I think most hunters are like me, where the buck tag increases the motivation to get into the woods. In the few years I've filled two buck tags I've been far less motivated to get up early, hunt the bitter cold, and generally do the "hard" things. Personally I've killed a lot of does hunting for bucks but have yet to kill one on my couch.

I think the impact of APR and OBR on public land will be heavily location dependent. In SE MI I expect to see a similar number of deer due to the heavy pressure in that area. I would expect to see higher age class due to younger bucks being untouchable (APR) or just targeted less (OBR). In the UP I'm expecting pretty minimal change as they've had APR on the combo license for years and very few are shooting 2 bucks. I think doe with a bow will have a larger impact there by rebalancing the herd within the current carrying capacity of that landscape (I'd love to see more land and predator management in the UP as well). I won't comment on NLP as I haven't spent much time hunting there.

 

[craigrh13]

Just an FYI. A key biologist in this state has wanted us to go OBR for a long time. They are absolutely supportive of it from a biological
perspective just as Dr. Tonkovich is.

 

[Netherman]

Just an FYI. A key biologist in this state has wanted us to go OBR for a long time. They are absolutely supportive of it from a biological
perspective just as Dr. Tonkovich is.

He loses me with the "hearts and minds" argument as it is speculative rather than factual. If you want more does killed, you should make it easy and make it cheap.

Speaking for myself I'll likely shoot less MI does in an OBR world since I'll be headed to OH or IN after my MI buck tag gets filled. Potential for a buck is a motivator that gets me into the woods. I'd probably still get out with only a doe tag, but it's an appreciable step down in motivation.

In regards to "make it easy and make it cheap"

Make it easy
We're already in a good spot on the make it easy front due to extended gun seasons.
Hunter access on private would go a long was as well, but I don't have a good answer on how.

Make it cheap
I think MI DNR should give a free antlerless tag when you purchase a single or combo antlered tag (KS does this). This would help as every hunter would have a dedicated tag that they couldn't "save" for a buck.

 

[craigrh13]

He loses me with the "hearts and minds" argument as it is speculative rather than factual. If you want more does killed, you should make it easy and make it cheap.

Speaking for myself I'll likely shoot less MI does in an OBR world since I'll be headed to OH or IN after my MI buck tag gets filled. Potential for a buck is a motivator that gets me into the woods. I'd probably still get out with only a doe tag, but it's an appreciable step down in motivation.

In regards to "make it easy and make it cheap"

Make it easy
We're already in a good spot on the make it easy front due to extended gun seasons.
Hunter access on private would go a long was as well, but I don't have a good answer on how.

Make it cheap
I think MI DNR should give a free antlerless tag when you purchase a single or combo antlered tag (KS does this). This would help as every hunter would have a dedicated tag that they couldn't "save" for a buck.

Do you think hunters in IN or OH come here after they shoot their buck because they just have to shoot 2 bucks or do you think they are so happy with their 1 buck because they are choosy that they don't care? I've noticed the average Michigan mentality in regards to bucks and the need to just shoot a buck is embarassing and nothing short of insanity. This isn't a knock on you but more so the mentality our regulations have forced on so many.