Anyone not use a ground sheet with a floorless shelter?

[Rifleman86]

Yeah I’ve got a GWS WM bag. Going to a bivy would seem to negate the advantages of the Gore Windstopper shell. Part of the reason I’m considering ditching the ground sheet altogether and just going with a pad.

That said those Borah bivy’s seem nice, and not much of a weight penalty. Would also be nice for the warmer months with bugs and critters.

 

[Kevin_t]

I often follow this level of thinking, and I honestly DO NOT use a bivy much any more .

If I really want to go light I go with nothing , or a large CCF pad like our matty pad and a small torso length air pad.

Next up a bivy .. but this has been my least used option lately .. Instead I often just carry a good bag , and call it sort of a bivy (instead of quilt plus bivy)

Full inner in smaller tents in the summer like the Silex or Elous

Finally a ground sheet when snow is on the ground , or the ground is really wet. Using a CCF pad like our Matty is just as likely

 

[tdot]

No dedicated ground sheet.

But I do carry a piece of Typar or Tyvek. The Typar has alot more texture and doesnt slip like Tyvek. I primarily use this to put meat on while processing an animal. I can use it as a ground sheet if the camp site is muddy. Can use it as an emergency cover over me or the meat.

I have multiple options sized from 2x5 for the lightest day trips. All the way up to 3x10 for longer trips.

I can cut it, modify it or destroy it. It's very handy to have.

 

[CBreeze]

Ultralight bivy with my pad inside is my way. With or without tarp or tipi. In a tipi or tarp it keeps condensation and melt off everything and keeps my stuff together so it’s not a yard sale of a sleep system. Plus a lot of the time I’ll just lay down and sleep wherever it gets dark (more or less) and the bivy is amenable to that.

 

[Poser]

Bivy convert here. Like other said, keeps everything contained, allows to run a 20 degree quilt down to pretty cold temps, and I can sleep without a tarp if I want to.

 

[darcytribe]

X2 on the so matty mcmatt, works great, light too.

 

[Jimss]

A couple of the tarps in the photos above look super open to the elements. On extended trips it looks like it would be miserable....especially if cooped up in snow/rain/clouds for several days? My guess is you and your gear would eventually get soaked? Hopefully a bivy would keep your sleeping bag from getting wet but what do you guys do to prevent your gear from getting soaked....especially without a ground cloth and a tarp that doesn't cover completely to the ground? Having 2 hunters under a small tarp would be super cramped?

An option I've been using for years is taking the fly off my 4 season Hilleberg tent. The fly with poles is literally bomberproof and super roomy. The sides of the fly go completely to the ground so snow, wind, and rain don't get inside. I use painters plastic with this setup. My guess is that my Hilleberg setup is as light as a fly plus bivy.

Am I the only one concerned about snow, wind, and rain on extended trips? It seems to me that things could get almost dangerous if a hunter only has an open tarp with bivy if a sudden snowstorm or blizzard comes through? I'm also leery about condensation in a bivy....even if covered by a tarp? I can understand this setup in dry conditions but in areas where it's humid plus wet such as Alaska? I often return to camp with soaking wet rain jacket, rain pants, boots, backpack, etc....it sure is nice to have a giant fly to spread out wet clothes, cook, etc!

A bivy plus tarp sounds good but what about real world living out in the elements? The learning curve may be pretty high for those that don't have a whole lot of experience.....such a set up could also be super dangerous!

 

[CBreeze]

I don’t know. I lived/ hunted in AK for 6 years. Lived / hunted Olympic peninsula 3 years. I grew up 10 miles from the southern terminus of the AT (aka the place where humidity originates) and ive been pretty happy with a bivy and a tarp through all that. I just spent a month and a half in a bivy with or without a tarp in temps from 40 down to -10 with precipitation occurring weekly at least and all my stuff was fine. Dry bags work! Don’t have a yard sale. Also consider if you are like me and only bring pretty much the stuff you will use- it’s all out being used and getting exposed to whatever elements you are being exposed to daily and it becomes pretty critical to keep moisture management at the forefront of your packing/layering/moving/going static/sleep strategy. Having a means of cooking your clothes dry with body heat etc is paramount importance. Attention to detail and care of equipment go quite a ways toward insuring success. If you are going to trust your life to it, treat it like your life depends on it.


I don’t buy into the learning curve being too steep. I think most guys just aren’t very motivated to learn how to spend real blocks of time exposed to inclement weather.
The learning curve isn’t as steep at the KOA I suppose

*i say most guys I don’t mean most of you guys so please don’t think I’m challenging anyone’s manhood here. Simply participating in this conversation would indicate above average interest in how to maintain performance and productivity in adverse conditions.

 

[wasatchcomm]

was using tyvek, just got the Borah gear bivy used it for several nights, wind rain and snow, inside my LBO
I'm sold on the bevy, no condensation, great system wish had not waited so long to get one...
no weather hunts i will have it and quilt for sleeping, maybe a SO tarp from my LBO setup,, solid system when not a ton of weather expected, and light!

 

[AK Troutbum]

A couple of the tarps in the photos above look super open to the elements. On extended trips it looks like it would be miserable....especially if cooped up in snow/rain/clouds for several days? My guess is you and your gear would eventually get soaked? Hopefully a bivy would keep your sleeping bag from getting wet but what do you guys do to prevent your gear from getting soaked....especially without a ground cloth and a tarp that doesn't cover completely to the ground? Having 2 hunters under a small tarp would be super cramped?

An option I've been using for years is taking the fly off my 4 season Hilleberg tent. The fly with poles is literally bomberproof and super roomy. The sides of the fly go completely to the ground so snow, wind, and rain don't get inside. I use painters plastic with this setup. My guess is that my Hilleberg setup is as light as a fly plus bivy.

Am I the only one concerned about snow, wind, and rain on extended trips? It seems to me that things could get almost dangerous if a hunter only has an open tarp with bivy if a sudden snowstorm or blizzard comes through? I'm also leery about condensation in a bivy....even if covered by a tarp? I can understand this setup in dry conditions but in areas where it's humid plus wet such as Alaska? I often return to camp with soaking wet rain jacket, rain pants, boots, backpack, etc....it sure is nice to have a giant fly to spread out wet clothes, cook, etc!

A bivy plus tarp sounds good but what about real world living out in the elements? The learning curve may be pretty high for those that don't have a whole lot of experience.....such a set up could also be super dangerous!

A few years ago I did a 10 day goat hunt on Kodiak and spent eight of those nights in this shelter.

I did get wet on this trip, and had a couple pretty miserable wet nights, but those two nights were spent in a 4 season Mountain Hardware, mountaineering tent. During one of those 24 hour periods, Kodiak received the most rainfall ever recorded in a 24 hour period with 6” of rain coming down. At 3000’, I experienced the same with a little mixture of wet snow to boot. I do at least one big mountain hunt a year, and for the last 7 years, they’ve all been spent under a floorless shelter/tarp with an UL bivy, and I don’t think I’ll be changing that system up any time soon.


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[Jimss]

I guess what I'm trying to get across is exactly what's mentioned in the above 2 posts. A guy from the lower 48 heading up to Alaska on his first air drop for 10+ days may not know exactly what to expect if he's up against if he only has a tarp plus bivy. Imagine Alaskatroutbum's tarp and set up if there is 10" of snow plus horrific wind. Would you be able to survive 10 days? Will your tarp be able to withstand 10" of snow piled on top with just a couple light poles plus wind blowing in from the bottom? What happens if those conditions exist for 4 or 5 days and you are stuck under your tarp in a bivy? Do you think wet and condensation will be a problem as your clothes and gear gets wetter and wetter as time passes if you have no options for drying out?

Another consideration, if you are hunting with a partner....each one of you will need to pack your own bivy plus tarp. I would think a large floorless T-pee or quality tent that can be split between 2 hunters may be a great option for extended trips....they both would offer more protection and room in horrible weather. I know my Hilleberg fly is super solid and designed for 4 season outings...and if split between 2 hunters would likely be just as light/bulky as 2 tarp/bivy setups. I can also see where a floorless t-pee would offer more protection from wind/deep snow/rain than the tarps in the photos above.

I guess I'm a little more conservative and prepare for the worse. I can see where a tarp plus bivy would work fantastic 80% of the time...but what about the 20% where you would be totally miserable?

 

[CBreeze]

i guess if you let snow pile up on your shelter for 5 days you get what you get. Which is called “Life experience “ and subsequently don’t do that anymore. I’d way rather deal 5 days of snow than 5 days of rain or mixed precipitation. Conditions in the 28-40 range are absolute the most challenging. 20-28 is comparatively a cake walk in nearly every way accept mobility in the event of heavy snow.

When I hunt with another guy I don’t concern myself overly with his sleep system, but we do share a shelter often and that is always floorless and always pitched such that condensation is mitigated in ways that it simply cant be in a tent or under a tent fly pitched right to the ground. A couple posts above you mention some
Of the setups looking like they’d miserable in extended several days of rain etc. I’m miserable in my house with climate control if it rains for 3-4 days straight hard enough to keep in. Crappy weather and cabin fever suck wherever you experience them. Accepting the fact that I can’t make myself enjoy being cooped up for 3-4 days in the rain I’ve come to terms with simply being “safe” and “dry enough” it’s all a meter of perspective. I am absolutely prepared for the worst right down to emergency bail out plans etc- but a big part of being prepared is the mental preparedness to accept some Measure of discomfort and unpleasantness. There’s a difference between preparing for the worst, and preparing to try to make the best of the worst. To each there own

 

[mfllood3800]

I have used a ground cloth for years, but am switching to a Borah bivy. I still have tyvek in my pack but it's for a ground cloth for placing quartered meat on. Some of my hunts are lower elev and tree branches are small. I guess I just cant get rid of tyvek lol

 

[Jimss]

If I have the choice between braving out several days of horrible weather in a 4 x 6 area under a tarp with gapping holes and another floorless option that is 5 x 12' in size that is designed for those conditions I know which one I would pick on extended trips. It's possible to survive in each but it's super nice having additional room for cooking, drying, etc when cooped up for several days! I prize my sleep and would snooze like a baby under my 4 season fly....not sure about a tarp with gaps and wind/snow/rain.

I guess it comes down to your comfort level and if it's worth packing a little extra bulk and weight. I can withstand horrible conditions for a few days.....but on extended trips? Here in Colo it often can be a blizzard 1 day but wait a few hours or a day and it will likely be gorgeous. I can see where a floorless tarp/bivy would work well in those conditions.

 

[reaper]

It depends but often I don’t use one ... just a CCF pad


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Wich one exaclty?

Envoyé de mon Pixel 2 en utilisant Tapatalk

 

[Kevin_t]

In order

Our Matty Pad - acts as a groundsheet
Ridgrest 25 inch - sort of does , but it more of a pad
Nemo 20 inch - is just a pad

 

[sneaky]

I guess what I'm trying to get across is exactly what's mentioned in the above 2 posts. A guy from the lower 48 heading up to Alaska on his first air drop for 10+ days may not know exactly what to expect if he's up against if he only has a tarp plus bivy. Imagine Alaskatroutbum's tarp and set up if there is 10" of snow plus horrific wind. Would you be able to survive 10 days? Will your tarp be able to withstand 10" of snow piled on top with just a couple light poles plus wind blowing in from the bottom? What happens if those conditions exist for 4 or 5 days and you are stuck under your tarp in a bivy? Do you think wet and condensation will be a problem as your clothes and gear gets wetter and wetter as time passes if you have no options for drying out?

Another consideration, if you are hunting with a partner....each one of you will need to pack your own bivy plus tarp. I would think a large floorless T-pee or quality tent that can be split between 2 hunters may be a great option for extended trips....they both would offer more protection and room in horrible weather. I know my Hilleberg fly is super solid and designed for 4 season outings...and if split between 2 hunters would likely be just as light/bulky as 2 tarp/bivy setups. I can also see where a floorless t-pee would offer more protection from wind/deep snow/rain than the tarps in the photos above.

I guess I'm a little more conservative and prepare for the worse. I can see where a tarp plus bivy would work fantastic 80% of the time...but what about the 20% where you would be totally miserable?

I can assure you, you're Hilleberg won't withstand 10" of snow piled on top of it either. It's obvious you have never ran a floorless tarp setup because you are parroting a lot of misinformation from looking at a couple of pics. In severe weather you can batten those tarps down tight to the ground and eliminate drafts. No shelter system is immune to spin drift. Any shelter you use you have to be diligent about snow removal. Also, the DCF tarps don't sag or stretch like silnylon does, including your Hille. Common sense goes a long way using these shelters.

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[Jimss]

Take a look at the pictures of the first 2 tarps on this post and let me know how you can secure them to the ground? I'm sure this is possible with some tarps. You are right that my Hilleberg won't withstand the weight of super deep heavy snow but I can pretty much guarantee a 4 season tent fly is going to hold up better than most tarps that are held up by 1 or 2 poles. I would really like to see a tarp that is better designed for snow than my 4 season Hilleberg fly plus poles, stakes, and lines.

 

[CBreeze]

well thank god we’ve been set right. If only 1 persons good mood while snowed into a tent during a hunting trip is saved by this discussion it was worth enduring.

Now just to be clear- in the context of the OP that’s a no, you do not run a floorless with no ground cloth?

 

[Rifleman86]

So at this point I’m stuck in between the Matty Mat and the bivy. Most of my moisture problems was the one night I got in my bag wearing wet base layers. I thought being in the bag might dry them out, it didn’t, and just got the bag damp. I’m used to doing that with a synthetic bag, needless to say it didn’t work. That said I think snow getting on the tyvek and melting didn’t help either and overall was just messy and unorganized.

Matty Matt (8oz)

Pros
Doubles as a backup pad incase my pad pops
Durable
Doubles as a sit pad (2oz weight savings ditching the sit pad) and is much larger
Increases R value of the main pad
Relatively inexpensive

Cons
I theorize I might have the same issues I had with the tyvek, snow getting on the Matt from boots and clothes, melting when the stove gets fired up, then getting the pad wet, and slowly seeping into the bag.

Bivy (6oz)

Pros
Helps with moisture from tent condensation
Keeps everything together
Better protection if I have to just sleep under a tarp
Might add a few degrees to the bag

Cons
Less breathability, especially considering I’m using a GWS bag. Still not sure if this is something I need to worry about.
Might be a bit overkill with the GWS bag.
might add overall weight to the “emergency” sleep sytem, as I’ll still likely tote along a small tarp.

I mostly spike camp, but after getting myself in a pickle this year with the weather I’ve decided I’ll be taking the sleeping bag with me everywhere from this point forward as cheap insurance. I like the fact I can use the matty mat as a backup sleep pad in that scenario and just leave the relatively heavy primary pad at camp. That would save me about 1.5 lbs in “walk around weight” and have about a 4lb emergency shelter setup with the matty Matt, sleeping bag, and 6x9 tarp.

Either way the tyvek is going in the trash. It’s heavy for what it is, and offers none of the advantages of the Matty mat or ultralight bivy.