Antler size vs age Rokcast

[Okie-hunter]

This Rokcast with Kevin was highly enjoyable for me to listen to. Lots of good info and observations that just make sense when you think about it. Kevin hit pretty heavily on harsh vs mild winters and the correlated effects on antlers, I would be curious to know if there’s a correlation of antler growth and summer conditions. Do hot drought summers have a negative impact on antler growth compared to more mild & wet summers? Anyone have any info or observations regarding this?

 

[Bull_n_heat]

This Rokcast with Kevin was highly enjoyable for me to listen to. Lots of good info and observations that just make sense when you think about it. Kevin hit pretty heavily on harsh vs mild winters and the correlated effects on antlers, I would be curious to know if there’s a correlation of antler growth and summer conditions. Do hot drought summers have a negative impact on antler growth compared to more mild & wet summers? Anyone have any info or observations regarding this?

One of the better analogies I have heard on antler growth is that deer (or particularly elk) cannot eat enough calcium in a summer to growth the amount of bone they have on their head - they have to "mine" it from their own bodies. So, essentially early in life (and through falls and winters) they have to build that mine with nutrition.

Specific to summer conditions. I know folks in the southwest often talk about bulls "starting strong" or "finishing strong" , so no doubt current conditions make some difference too. I feel like @robby denning probably had someone on the show a while back (Brock or Randy Larsen) that talked about how much antler growth is a year effect and how much is a year-of-birth effect. I want to say it was around 10% for each. Which means that your 180" buck would have been a meager 164" buck in a dry year. My math is close, my recollection could be waaay off.

I'm thinking this is THE year for antler growth across much of the West. Moist year in 2023 filled the tanks well, a mild winter didn't tax it much, and so far (fingers crossed) we'll get some monsoonal rains to help "close them out". ahh the perils of an optimist!

 

[Okie-hunter]

One of the better analogies I have heard on antler growth is that deer (or particularly elk) cannot eat enough calcium in a summer to growth the amount of bone they have on their head - they have to "mine" it from their own bodies. So, essentially early in life (and through falls and winters) they have to build that mine with nutrition.

Specific to summer conditions. I know folks in the southwest often talk about bulls "starting strong" or "finishing strong" , so no doubt current conditions make some difference too. I feel like @robby denning probably had someone on the show a while back (Brock or Randy Larsen) that talked about how much antler growth is a year effect and how much is a year-of-birth effect. I want to say it was around 10% for each. Which means that your 180" buck would have been a meager 164" buck in a dry year. My math is close, my recollection could be waaay off.

I'm thinking this is THE year for antler growth across much of the West. Moist year in 2023 filled the tanks well, a mild winter didn't tax it much, and so far (fingers crossed) we'll get some monsoonal rains to help "close them out". ahh the perils of an optimist!

Lots of things to consider when growing big deer/elk is the topic! I hope it is the year for record growth as well and look forward to the success everyone will have.

 

[ReddingArcher]

I really enjoyed this episode too lots of interesting information!

 

[robby denning]

@Okie-hunter thanks for posting this up

(here is the episode if anyone looking for it)

Antler size vs Age in Bucks & Bulls - Rokslide

Robby host's Kevin Monteith. They are busting up the myths surrounding age of buck or bull vs. antler size. This episode will surprise more than a few hunters.

www.rokslide.com

Back to your question, I think you're talking about the episode I did with the same guest just a month or two ago.

Rockstar Research with Kevin Monteith - Rokslide

Robby hosts Rockstar Mule Deer Researcher Kevin Monteith of the Monteith Shop. They dive into current mule deer research that can make you a better deer hunter

www.rokslide.com

if that doesn't answer it, go back to roughly early June last year, Travis and I hosted some of the other researchers from the Monteith Shop and those subjects were covered.

Thanks!

 

[Okie-hunter]

Back to your question, I think you're talking about the episode I did with the same guest just a month or two ago.

Rockstar Research with Kevin Monteith - Rokslide

Robby hosts Rockstar Mule Deer Researcher Kevin Monteith of the Monteith Shop. They dive into current mule deer research that can make you a better deer hunter

www.rokslide.com

if that doesn't answer it, go back to roughly early June last year, Travis and I hosted some of the other researchers from the Monteith Shop and those subjects were covered.

Thanks!

Outstanding! I’ll give them a listen.

 

[AHayes111]

This pod cast is what has landed me on this forum. The part about bucks not going down hill until the end is exactly what I have seen in my 40+ years of shed hunting. Rapid growth at first, then slowing till about age 6 and then fairly steady until death with maybe one year of decline at the end of life. However I rarely see the best set of antlers at age six. Maybe this is because bucks in SE MT just have it easier than bucks in Western WY. Probably found antlers from/watched at least a two dozen bucks that lived to 8+ and this almost always the pattern of growth, but there are always a few exceptions. The whitetail I shot a few years back comes to mind. Was always better the next year and then he exploded with mass and NT points at age eight, Pictures are from that whitetail and a 200+ mule deer from the 80's. The last year the mule deer regressed 20+ inches. Hard to say how old he was. I have seven years of antlers and I am confident he was not a 180+ two year old with the smallest single and I could have missed a year or two of sheds in that juniper jungle. At least 10 years old any way.

edit: If some of the mule deer antlers look old and chewed it is because they are. Took me 13 and 14 year to match up the two sets on the bottom row. Mostly because when I found the first two antlers a half mile apart I thought I had a set. Wrong.

 

[Travis Hobbs]

This pod cast is what has landed me on this forum. The part about bucks not going down hill until the end is exactly what I have seen in my 40+ years of shed hunting. Rapid growth at first, then slowing till about age 6 and then fairly steady until death with maybe one year of decline at the end of life. However I rarely see the best set of antlers at age six. Maybe this is because bucks in SE MT just have it easier than bucks in Western WY. Probably found antlers from/watched at least a two dozen bucks that lived to 8+ and this almost always the pattern of growth, but there are always a few exceptions. The whitetail I shot a few years back comes to mind. Was always better the next year and then he exploded with mass and NT points at age eight, Pictures are from that whitetail and a 200+ mule deer from the 80's. The last year the mule deer regressed 20+ inches. Hard to say how old he was. I have seven years of antlers and I am confident he was not a 180+ two year old with the smallest single and I could have missed a year or two of sheds in that juniper jungle. At least 10 years old any way.View attachment 721815View attachment 721817

This is awesome! Welcome to the forum!

 

[Norcalkarl]

Going to check that out thanks

 

[JohnnyB]

Excellent Rokcast! Fascinating topic. No more dry doe excuses.

 

[AHayes111]

A few more, I found at least one side from this buck for 7 years and I it is likely I missed a few or other people found them, Only 6 years in the picture. I found a small four point from the buck and left it in the hills. Back then I wasn't in to packing out small ones. Wish I hadn't. The best three years are close two the same in size. The best set is right at 200 typical, I think it is his second to last set of antlers judging by the weathering on the antlers. I found one antler from the next year, Lost 12 inches of typical, but added a nearly 10 inch drop so I am not complaining. Likely he died after shedding that year. How old was he, hard to say, At least 10 I would bet.

 

[AHayes111]

This whitetail is eight. I have at least one antler from every year. At year seven he took a big drop. Went from a 75 inch five point to a 68 inch four point, but then at age eight he grew the best set ever. only reason I can think of for the drop is rut stress. At age 6 he may have become the dominate buck in the area and he may have rutted him self down. Kind of like a small town county boy the first year they go to collage.

 

[AHayes111]

I found 7 years of antlers form this whitetail. Think he was nine when he died of EHD. Yea I sold the first two sets and a neighbor found the head. In the picture the second and third year of the line of antlers should be switched. He took a big drop on that third set of antlers(second in the picture). That was the year after the 96/97 winter. All deer struggled that year. Best set of antlers is the last year by a few inches. Unfortunately I could not talk the neighbor out of the head and last I saw it his dogs were chewing on it in the yard.

 

[Travis Hobbs]

This is awesome ^^^^

 

[robby denning]

I found 7 years of antlers form this whitetail. Think he was nine when he died of EHD. Yea I sold the first two sets and a neighbor found the head. In the picture the second and third year of the line of antlers should be switched. He took a big drop on that third set of antlers(second in the picture). That was the year after the 96/97 winter. All deer struggled that year. Best set of antlers is the last year by a few inches. Unfortunately I could not talk the neighbor out of the head and last I saw it his dogs were chewing on it in the yard.View attachment 721895

Welcome to the forum and those are some impressive finds and records there. Good to hear your evidence agrees with the researcher.

I know sometimes they have an off year due to the rut like you said, but also sometimes they get injured and not grow very well till they healed up

 

[AHayes111]

Quite a few years back we had a yearling whitetail that busted up the pedicle on the left side. The antler hung down along side of his jaw. I didn't find those antlers but I found all the rest until my brother shot him at age seven. That antler was always a little goofy and came off of his head more to the side. What is real unique about this buck was in Nov of his forth year my brother had him run by him and the right antler was dangling along the side of his head by a thread of hide. A few days later it had fallen off. I found it in the spring and the entire pedicle was ripped from the skull. There couldn't have been much bone between open air and his brain. I saw him a few weeks in to Dec. and he looked terrible, I was sure he was going to die, but he didn't. Sure did set him back for a few years. The first year right side was a goofy anter with no real shape. The next year the antler stuck almost straight up and had the shape of a three point mule deer antler with a missing G4 with some extras. When my brother shot him he was fully recoverd. The left was a big 70 inch + five point and right was just like the year before only bigger. Wish my brother would have done a european mount to show all the damage to his skull, but he opted for a head mount. I don't think I ever took a picture of the antlers all together

 

[AHayes111]

I also kind of agree that does in good shape produce the best fawns. The best year I have ever saw in SE MT for big deer was 1987. No other year is even close. I don't think it is quiescence that it is 8 years after the big winter kill of 78/79. Once does that survived recovered they would have had little competition for food and would have been in great shape in 80 and 81. Buck fawns born in those years would have been hitting there peak in 87. The one thing that gives me pause is that does that summer on our irrigated alfalfa are always in great shape. There is no such thing as a drought when you summer on irrigated alfalfa. If all it took was great feed to produce big deer those doe should be raising big deer by the truck loads. Unfortunately that is just not the case so there must be more to big deer than just great feed and body condition.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Cool topic. I’ve said this for years and guys don’t believe me… Some of the most impressive bucks and bulls here in Arizona I’ve ever seen have been close to canyons that have a ton of limestone. It’s no surprise that limestone is basically just calcium and when they drink the water and lick the limestone deposits you really see the results.

 

[robby denning]

Cool topic. I’ve said this for years and guys don’t believe me… Some of the most impressive bucks and bulls here in Arizona I’ve ever seen have been close to canyons that have a ton of limestone. It’s no surprise that limestone is basically just calcium and when they drink the water and lick the limestone deposits you really see the results.

I believe!

 

[robby denning]

I also kind of agree that does in good shape produce the best fawns. The best year I have ever saw in SE MT for big deer was 1987. No other year is even close. I don't think it is quiescence that it is 8 years after the big winter kill of 78/79. Once does that survived recovered they would have had little competition for food and would have been in great shape in 80 and 81. Buck fawns born in those years would have been hitting there peak in 87. The one thing that gives me pause is that does that summer on our irrigated alfalfa are always in great shape. There is no such thing as a drought when you summer on irrigated alfalfa. If all it took was great feed to produce big deer those doe should be raising big deer by the truck loads. Unfortunately that is just not the case so there must be more to big deer than just great feed and body condition.

Thanks for sharing 40+ years of history on your experiences. The stuff is great to hear from somebody that’s done it. Not theory.

I understand on the agriculture, dear. There is no drought. Can’t explain it either, but I know I’ve seen some really big bucks living around ag, too!

Thanks for sharing