Anti feral horse organizations

[doc holiday13]

Chemical castration. Let them live there life but not able to reproduce.

Bruh.... FFX county VA does sterilization on deer ... Such as waste of $$. Plenty of people would love to eat horse

 

[displacedtexan]

The single biggest danger on this entire issue, is permitting anyone to accept or promote the implicit assumption that the only good landscape is one untouched by human hands. That is what is at the heart of treating people like a disease, and environmentalism as religion with "gaia" as its deity. Don't ever accept these viewpoints, as they dehumanize people - and that is always the first step in forcible removal and elimination of people. Dehumanization.

If you want to see people forcibly removed, restricted, and eliminated from enjoying public lands, the first step is permitting our dehumanization by treating us as a disease.

To that end:

1) The issue isn't "not native", the issue is "invasive" - which is an issue of destroying habitat for native species. There is no problem with non-native.

2) Our goal is not pre-human "pristine", lands untouched by humanity - the goal is sustainable balance. That means human intervention, human use, and human recreation as fundamental requirements.

Well, my entire premise is hinged on managed... And sustainability.

No native vs invasive... I agree with you, but the majority of the people against invasive horses are ranchers. You think they want more deer, or more cows?

And again, my point is the optics. It's hard to win people over when there's something they can see that's even a little bit valid that they can point to.

 

[displacedtexan]

If there as a magic button to eliminate all horses and nonnative trout I’d press it. BUT, non-native is not the same as invasive.

Around here at least the nonnative trout are not invasive. They are triploid so can’t reproduce, and can’t even survive outside a narrow habitat like a tailwater or artificial lake. If the G&F wanted to get rid of them they’d be gone within a few months at most and if human management disappeared they’d be mostly gone in a few years.

On the other hand horses are reproducing out of control, eating every scrap of nutrition until they’re starving, but humans are intervening to prop them up with feed. And they directly harm native wildlife by running them off water sources. I don’t see any real comparison except maybe Asian carp

So you still have native trout in abundance?

 

[RockAndSage]

my point is the optics.

100% agree on this - even too many hunters romanticize the "wild mustangs roaming the West", without respecting the tremendous damage they do with unchecked population numbers. Even when looking at the evidence at their feet on any given mule deer hunt in the Great Basin.

As to ranchers or hunters having a bigger problem with feral horses, I guarantee you far more hunters experience the damage than do ranchers - but ranchers have to live with them daily. And hunters typically aren't getting their horses stolen by feral studs the way some ranchers and locals do have to deal with.

But overall, the optics issue is the #1 thing preventing this issue from getting resolved - it's not a far left radical issue the way some obscure smelt or snail is. It's kind of symbolic of the West and American freedom, so it would take a lot of public education and communications campaigns to get the average voter to see it's an unchecked problem.

 

[KHNC]

So you still have native trout in abundance?

I think wolves and grizzlies have practically decimated the native trout in the west.

 

[displacedtexan]

I think wolves and grizzlies have practically decimated the native trout in the west.

I mean, I'd rather catch native fish too, I see where they're coming from.

 

[canyonhunter47]

So you still have native trout in abundance?

Did we ever have native trout in abundance in Arizona? No. Either way, no honest horse supporter could point to put and take triploid rainbows in an artificial pond for the winter and the horses and say they’re equivalent.

 

[displacedtexan]

Did we ever have native trout in abundance in Arizona? No. Either way, no honest horse supporter could point to put and take triploid rainbows in an artificial pond for the winter and the horses and say they’re equivalent.

Oh? Arizona...

Yeah, the rainbows absolutely out compete Gila trout...

 

[canyonhunter47]

Oh? Arizona...

Yeah, the rainbows absolutely out compete Gila trout...

Where does the Arizona game and fish have an out of control rainbow trout population impeding their gila trout restoration effort? Which streams? I’d be curious to know because besides Lee’s ferry, every rainbow trout in the state is individually put there by the game and fish.

 

[displacedtexan]

Where does the Arizona game and fish have an out of control rainbow trout population impeding their gila trout restoration effort? Which streams? I’d be curious to know because besides Lee’s ferry, every rainbow trout in the state is individually put there by the game and fish.

One of the keystones of that recovery program was removal of non native fish...

Of course that's not part of the problem NOW.

 

[go_deep]

I've heard the same thing said time and time again, the ranchers run the west with politics. The horses hurt the grazing ranchers just like the hurt the hunters, get the ranchers on board with the hunters to start an anti-horse group.

 

[canyonhunter47]

One of the keystones of that recovery program was removal of non native fish...

Of course that's not part of the problem NOW.

That’s my point. If horses were a tightly controlled non-native like trout, there wouldn’t be a problem.

Try to suggest that the government take similar steps to control and drastically reduce the horse population and you’ll have a stampede of middle-aged women neighing down your neck wanting to geld you instead

 

[RockAndSage]

the ranchers run the west with politics

This hasn't been true at the state level since the 1970s-1980s, and even then mining and forestry were always up there as part of these Big Three in the good ol' boy power networks balancing them out. At the county level, there are regions where you'll get a handful of counties where the influence is substantial, but it's largely a thing of the past.

These days, the Western states are entirely controlled by the handful of cities that dominate our populations - Vegas/Reno here in Nevada, Boise, Denver, Phoenix, Portland, Seattle/Tacoma, Montana's university towns, CA's port cities, Albuquerque and Santa Fe...these tiny geographies of densely populated urbanization absolutely obliterated the power of rural counties by the end of the 1990s/early 2000s, and it's only gotten worse.

 

[go_deep]

This hasn't been true at the state level since the 1970s-1980s, and even then mining and forestry were always up there as part of these Big Three in the good ol' boy power networks balancing them out. At the county level, there are regions where you'll get a handful of counties where the influence is substantial, but it's largely a thing of the past.

These days, the Western states are entirely controlled by the handful of cities that dominate our populations - Vegas/Reno here in Nevada, Boise, Denver, Phoenix, Portland, Seattle/Tacoma, Montana's university towns, CA's port cities, Albuquerque and Santa Fe...these tiny geographies of densely populated urbanization absolutely obliterated the power of rural counties by the end of the 1990s/early 2000s, and it's only gotten worse.

This is what I said, you took one little tiny piece of it and change the entire meaning....

I've heard the same thing said time and time again, the ranchers run the west with politics. The horses hurt the grazing ranchers just like the hurt the hunters, get the ranchers on board with the hunters to start an anti-horse group.

 

[AHayes111]

No native vs invasive... I agree with you, but the majority of the people against invasive horses are ranchers. You think they want more deer, or more cows?

Any rancher that thinks that there will be more cow if horses are removed is kidding themselves. However if horses are removed or even numbers brought under control, the rancher will benefit because their cows will do better.

My solution, Issue the horse advocates grazing permits. The BLM range specialists get to determine the appropriate number and it is the horse advocates responsibility to keep the numbers within the permit. Failure to do so and the horses are treated just like someone with cows would be. The federal government should not be in the wildlife business, that is the states job. Nor should the government be in the livestock business.

 

[RockAndSage]

This is what I said, you took one little tiny piece of it and change the entire meaning....

I've heard the same thing said time and time again, the ranchers run the west with politics. The horses hurt the grazing ranchers just like the hurt the hunters, get the ranchers on board with the hunters to start an anti-horse group.

Honest misreading man, wasn't intentional.

 

[CMF]

What's the fine like for shooting one?

 

[mcr-85]

That's part of the issue... Optics. And those reasons for dismissal have some root in the motivations of a percentage of the people who want them gone.

How many people who are anti feral horse management come from outside the hunting or ranching spheres?

Are the same people anti pheasant/chuckar/huns? Also not native, and much newer to the landscape.

What about their attitude towards non native fish, like brown and rainbow trout?

And before the usual crowd gets mad at me for being pro predator... I try to approach this from an intellectual honesty standpoint. If I don't want feral horses because they're not native, shouldn't I view the fun to catch brown trout the same way? If I want elk all over Oklahoma, shouldn't I also want brown bears and wolves?

Can we return to an intact ecosystem, or even one from 150 years ago? No. But if we want parts, it seems like we should want all the parts. And have all parts managed with the same goals.

Chukar, pheasant, brown trout and rainbow trout serve a purpose. What purpose does a feral horse serve?

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[Nickman123]

Horses are one of those species, like dogs, cats, and dolphins, that many humans, particularly women, think are "special". Almost equal to humans in their minds. Trying to get them to think logically and rationally about eliminating any horse, anywhere, is going to be really tough.
My nephew got involved with a girl who was a rabid member of a horse rescue orginazation. Mostly a bunch of rich woman. According to him, there are horse auctions where unwanted horses are sold off. They are typically horses that are very old, crippled, abused, etc.... to the point that they can no longer be ridden or used for any work. Since you can't slaughter horses in the US for food, buyers at the auction typically buy them and ship them to Mexico where they are slaughtered and the meat sold to Europe. This horse rescue outfit would go to the auction, outbid everyone, then put the horses they just bought out in a pasture somewhere that the organization owned or leased. That way the horse could die peacefully of old age. Sounded insane to me, but that's what your dealing with.

 

[displacedtexan]

That’s my point. If horses were a tightly controlled non-native like trout, there wouldn’t be a problem.

Try to suggest that the government take similar steps to control and drastically reduce the horse population and you’ll have a stampede of middle-aged women neighing down your neck wanting to geld you instead

Because of optics...

I'm very pro management.