ammo selection for elk/deer

[Skieswalker12]

Hello, I am going to make my first attempt at elk & deer this year in the Idaho panhandle. I recently got my first rifle in 308 Win and have been looking at ammo. I am considering 2 options, but I wanted to run it by people with experience. I was looking at Federal Premium Vital-Shok Trophy Bonded Tip .308 Winchester 165 Grain vs Federal Premium Berger Hybrid Hunter .308 Winchester 168 Grain.

I have no plans on taking a shot beyond 300 yards and honestly probably shorter at <200 yd. I plan on spending the next couple of months getting comfortable with the rifle as getting to know my limits, this is why I was looking at these 2 options as being more affordable. However, if these rounds would be a poor choice or unethical, I would suck it up and buy a more expensive round.

 

[bielenbm]

For 300 yards and in, just buy a couple different boxes of ammo. Use whatever has the best 10 shot group. In my experience the Hornady precision hunter or match ammo is a pretty solid choice.

 

[Rich M]

165 is a good grain. Use nosler partition and call it a day.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

265 is a good grain. Use nosler partition and call it a day.

I think you mean 165-grain.


____________________
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[Rich M]

I think you mean 165-grain.


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“Keep on keepin’ on…”

Yes. I’ll fix it.

 

[chizelhead]

I think of the two, the Federal Premium Vital-Shok Trophy Bonded Tip would be preferable. For that range and your first attempt hunting elk, it would give you a better margin of safety if you hit bone in my opinion.

 

[Jack321]

Hello, I am going to make my first attempt at elk & deer this year in the Idaho panhandle. I recently got my first rifle in 308 Win and have been looking at ammo. I am considering 2 options, but I wanted to run it by people with experience. I was looking at Federal Premium Vital-Shok Trophy Bonded Tip .308 Winchester 165 Grain vs Federal Premium Berger Hybrid Hunter .308 Winchester 168 Grain.

I have no plans on taking a shot beyond 300 yards and honestly probably shorter at <200 yd. I plan on spending the next couple of months getting comfortable with the rifle as getting to know my limits, this is why I was looking at these 2 options as being more affordable. However, if these rounds would be a poor choice or unethical, I would suck it up and buy a more expensive round.

Lots of good options.

1st of all dang near every hunting bullet, in a reasonable weight (150-180 grain) for a .308 is going to be able to drop deer--Minus target bullets or FMJs.

That being said, a TON of elk have been killed with the .308 and its a fine choice.

There's a forum on here that everyone says a .223 is the perfect bullet for elk, and guys will talk you into the new "hot rounds" and everything ranging from. 223 to 338 Win Mag. But .308 is again an excellent choice.

The "book" says you want a minimum of 1500 ft/lbs of energy at whatever range to efficiently kill an elk. Now, is it possible less than that--absolutely! A .22LR to the head will drop an elk! But let's be realistic, practical and "real world" for average Joe's.

So whatever bullet you choose, do so with that reference point (1500 ft/lbs) in mind.

Now in a .308, the recommendation would be 165-180gr, "premium" bullets.

Things like (premium bullets):

Terminal Ascent, 175gr
Trophy Bonded Tips, 165 or 180 gr
Nosler Accubonds 165 or 180 gr
Trophy Copper/E-Tips, GMX, or any other copper bullets in 165 gr (understand copper needs to be fired at faster fps to open.)
Nosler Partition in 165 or 180 gr
Fusion Tipped 165 gr

Technically guys will also use Cup-n-Core bullets like the Core-Lokt, Power Points, Interlok--but just recommend "heavy for caliber" bullets so they won't pancake on you.

Lastly, accuracy trumps everything. If you find an accurate bullet in the Preimum Bullets above--that's your bullet.

CAN you do it with a lessee bullet, or a smaller caliber--absolutely! But IMO we owe it to the game we pursue have ethical, quick and clean kills. And when presented with a less than stellar shot opportunity, have the hardware to get to the vitals. I'm not saying "bigger is better and shoot a 375 H&H."

No I'm saying, practical applications, for normal/everyday average joe hunters.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Energy doesn’t mean anything. These animals are not armor-plated. The only bad bullet choices in a .308 are those that fail to upset reliably at the impact velocity.

If you want to be conservative, get something with a 165-grain Nosler Partition. It will do the job just fine.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Cantshoot]

I shoot 180 grain core lokt tipped, main reason it shoots great out of my gun and secondly because I got a bunch of it cheap. Has worked great on deer and elk.

 

[CJ19]

Any reputatable brand hunting bullet from a big box store should be fine for your application at reasonable distances 0-300 yards. Follow the box recommendation for game species but for your application 150-180 grain will work. Choose the bullet that shoots the best from your rifle as accuracy is the most important factor. If you want the most impressive performance, bullets like the partition, ballistic tips, sst, and a tip would be the premium choice. That being said, the number of elk killed with core lokts and interlocks is unreal.

 

[Davyalabama]

Forget the match bullets at your distances.
Get a good expanding bullet that groups well from your gun, but more importantly puts that "First shot" where you want it. I don't get into that 10 shot thing, 3-5 is plenty for me. The Federal you chose is fine. Federal, Norma, Winchester, Nosler all have the ammo you're looking for. If you don't have to, please don't shoot that non lead crap.
.308 is a fantastic round, you chose well.

 

[EastHumboldt]

I don’t pretend to speak for davyalabama, but possibly some explanation is in order regarding non lead crap.

You may already know this. Some states require non lead ammo (usually copper) in an attempt to protect raptor populations, because there is some likelihood an eagle hawk or vulture will eat some lead from a bullet killed carcass. The problem with copper bullets is they don’t expand well at lower velocities. They should expand adequately inside of 300 yards when fired from a .308 but of course YMMV.

Thinner jacketed cup and core lead bullets expand well at lower velocities, but tend to explode at high velocities, leaving a lot of lead fragments in the meat/vitals. They’re certainly effective killers, and zillions of game animals have fallen to them since the invention of smokeless powder and brass cartridges.

Since the invention of solid copper bullets, zillions of animals have been killed with them, and many internet feelings have been hurt in the process.

As has been mentioned a few times, accuracy is important because it doesn’t matter what bullet you shoot em in the ass with.

 

[Jack321]

Energy doesn’t mean anything. These animals are not armor-plated. The only bad bullet choices in a .308 are those that fail to upset reliably at the impact velocity.

If you want to be conservative, get something with a 165-grain Nosler Partition. It will do the job just fine.


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Sorry bro, disagree with you on that.

Energy is certainly important for the bullet to expand properly & cause tissue damage & loss of blood to the vutal organs.

All bullet manufacturers list suggested velocities, expressly for this reason. A bullet that fails to open or fails to do what it's meant (at those velocities) is a bad bullet.

It's why you see all these bullet manufacturers show their mushrooms at different velocities.

And combined with the bullet weight, bullet design and the projectiles velocity translate into kinetic energy at whatever distance the projectile impact its target.

If energy doesn't mean anything, I challenge you to shoot an elk with a rock & a sling shot to the lungs & see how your # of elk stack up against all others!

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Sorry bro, disagree with you on that.

Energy is certainly important for the bullet to expand properly & cause tissue damage & loss of blood to the vutal organs.

All bullet manufacturers list suggested velocities, expressly for this reason. A bullet that fails to open or fails to do what it's meant (at those velocities) is a bad bullet.

It's why you see all these bullet manufacturers show their mushrooms at different velocities.

And combined with the bullet weight, bullet design and the projectiles velocity translate into kinetic energy at whatever distance the projectile impact its target.

If energy doesn't mean anything, I challenge you to shoot an elk with a rock & a sling shot to the lungs & see how your # of elk stack up against all others!

Impact velocity matters. I said that. You have to match the bullet to the expected impact velocity. A bullet that performs well at 2200 FPS at 300 yards may well fail to upset at 1800 FPS at 600 yards.

Kinetic energy is not a good measure of killing effectiveness. The old balderdash about needing 1500 foot pounds of energy is just nonsense. It doesn't take 1500 foot pounds of energy for a bullet to penetrate 12-18" into ballistics gel or an animal's chest cavity.

A 150-grain AP, a 150-grain FMJ, and a properly designed 150-grain “expanding bullet” traveling at 2500 FPS will hit the target with the same energy. Two are going to pencil through and the other is going to upset and cause more extensive damage. Bullet design matters.

The .308 is not a weak cartridge by any stretch of the imagination. But a hunter has to pick the right bullet construction to ensure that it upsets consistently when it hits. Picking a bullet that is too tough - too hard to upset - is a fairly common problem. Knowing the maximum range at which your bullet will upset properly is as important as knowing the maximum range at which you can hit the animal.


____________________
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[highcountrymuley]

I use 165 core loks on elk . Your choices are probably fine if u put bullet in a good place. Of course folks are arguing amongst themselves instead of answering your question. I have no experience with either of your bullet choices. Just tell everyone here you are going to use Nosler Partitions and they will be ok!

 

[Jack321]

Impact velocity matters. I said that. You have to match the bullet to the expected impact velocity. A bullet that performs well at 2200 FPS at 300 yards may well fail to upset at 1800 FPS at 600 yards.

Kinetic energy is not a good measure of killing effectiveness. The old balderdash about needing 1500 foot pounds of energy is just nonsense. It doesn't take 1500 foot pounds of energy for a bullet to penetrate 12-18" into ballistics gel or an animal's chest cavity.

A 150-grain AP, a 150-grain FMJ, and a properly designed 150-grain “expanding bullet” traveling at 2500 FPS will hit the target with the same energy. Two are going to pencil through and the other is going to upset and cause more extensive damage. Bullet design matters.

The .308 is not a weak cartridge by any stretch of the imagination. But a hunter has to pick the right bullet construction to ensure that it upsets consistently when it hits. Picking a bullet that is too tough - too hard to upset - is a fairly common problem. Knowing the maximum range at which your bullet will upset properly is as important as knowing the maximum range at which you can hit the animal.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

I think you and I are both saying the exact same thing, just using different words to say it. Re-reading both our comments are essentially the same points.

However, I do stand by the 1500 ft/lbs minimum energy. I also like 1000 ft/lbs of energy for deer, but have personally witnessed and been part of deer dropping with only 700 ft/lbs.

Nothing is "absolute," but I like to account for a certain margin of error. We are talking about hunting after all, and nothing ever goes to plan 100% of the time.

What's the old saying, "Hope for the best. Plan for the worst."

CAN you kill an elk lower than 1500 ft/lbs--absolutely!! To me, that's a benchmark number.

That, and as both you and I say--it also needs to be part of the equation:

Bullet construction, bullet velocity, bullet weight and proper aiming to put the projectile where it needs to go all are part of it.

It's physics and math.

Again, we're both basically saying the same thing. Expansion at a specific velocity matters. And that does translate into a mathematical equation that also calculates kinetic energy.

 

[EastHumboldt]

Heads up for skieswalker…. In case you haven’t noticed, people love to argue energy vs velocity and big vs small caliber and magnum vs whatever here on the slide.

I’ve read literally a books worth of discussion about it. Some of it quite heated. Here’s my real world takeaway based on careful consideration of the above factors, and 30+ years of stomping around the weeds looking for ungulates.

Like you, I came to this game late (almost 30 years old)

It is easier to shoot a light kicking cartridge well than it is to shoot a 30-06 or 7PRC or a 338 mag. That’s true even for un-suppressed, and even more true for a suppressed rifle. I shot a 30-06 since 1988, and recently switched to a 7-08. My shooting has improved a lot. Shot placement is king, regardless of cartridge choice. A good bullet won’t make up for a bad shot.

Read a lot about any hunting topic, try out different things in the field , and after awhile the good advice will separate itself from the bad.

One of the biggest joys of hunting is the way it makes you fully attentive and focused on your Surroundings when you’re out there. Don’t ever lose that because it’s fun, and will make you a better hunter.

Dont put too much pressure on filling a tag, or a certain antler score. That can take a lot of the fun out of it.

Always be hunting. They’ll pop up when you’re trying to do something else. Develop your stalking skills, spend a ton of time with your glass glued to your face. Buy decent glass because cheap glass will give you a headache, literally.

Enjoy the adventure of learning a new skill.

Have fun.

 

[RockAndSage]

If energy doesn't mean anything, I challenge you to shoot an elk with a rock & a sling shot to the lungs

How much energy does a broadhead-tipped arrow transfer into an elk?

 

[wind gypsy]

I'd skip wasting money on "premium" controlled expansion 308 ammo for your application. If federal blue box (power shock?) or rem core-lokt ammo at $1/ea or less shoots well, buy a pile of that and focus on what matters - building your competencies. I bet either will kill better than a stout "premium" bullet at modest 308 velocities anyway.

 

[roadrunner]

Impact velocity matters. I said that. You have to match the bullet to the expected impact velocity. A bullet that performs well at 2200 FPS at 300 yards may well fail to upset at 1800 FPS at 600 yards.

A 150-grain AP, a 150-grain FMJ, and a properly designed 150-grain “expanding bullet” traveling at 2500 FPS will hit the target with the same energy. Two are going to pencil through and the other is going to upset and cause more extensive damage. Bullet design matters.

So is it velocity or is it bullet design that matters?