American Prairie loses grazing rights

I know that ~ 3% of the total production is public land based, that’s a widely shown number by a lot of groups.

A lot of the west is relatively low production per acre, some areas over 100 acres per AUM.

I don’t know how blm in holdings play into those numbers either
Also, what percent of that percent is the number in question with the APR? It’s a back and forth debatable topic having cattle on public land period. But is it really debatable that the APR’s tiny percent of that tiny percent is relevant from any broader food security standpoint? Also, if we are really that worried about food security here anyone can dm me, I have some places to start that might be a bit more beneficial than cattle ranching if one is so passionate.

Sure, someone can go slippery slope with it but Clark Griswald’s saucer didn’t have enough lubrication to make a slope slippery enough where a meaningful percent of that 3% of cows would become Bison. After all, those things are unruly and vicious right?
 
My only major problem with ranchers centers around the public discourse and overly romanticized portrayal of them. Whenever in a debate regarding cattle and rangeland health with ranchers or proselytizing pro rancher people they go the “Clayton Mortenson” or other “good actor” rancher route with their argument.

However, whenever I agree with the practices of the good rancher and ask how I can help them make those practices the law and the norm they wane. They tend to use the positive exceptions only to excuse the damaging norm and not as a motivation and catalyst for real change. I always ask, “Is there a bill or policy I can call and make comments on? Is there any action I can do to make the good actor ranchers practice the minimum? Because it sounds great! You’re right. I love it! Let’s do it!” They always balk at that.

I’m not inherently anti-ranching but I have a hard time seeing the industry as a whole as good allies when they claim to have found a better way but refuse to make it the rule and not the exception.

Addition: Also, one’s views of ranchers is hugely dependent on the ecotype they run around and hunt in. I’ve been in areas where the grass is thick, the soil hardy, and cattle roam. If that’s where one lives and hunts they might see the cattle as just benefitting the land and in those areas they may be right. I’ve run around mostly in the arid high desert Great Basin. Where soils are loose, grass sparse, invasives primed, and water holes vulnerable to sedimentation and erosion. There is no plus side to the species there. I have seen completely nuked landscapes and completely destroyed creeks devoid of any fish life. Just from livestock damage. They can be the cure or the poison. I just see the latter more and the rangeland health studies in my area show that as the norm.
It’s Clarence Mortenson and having the pleasure of getting to meet him and ride around he would probably agree with what you say more than not.

I believe the land should be multi use and there are regulations on it already it seems they are not enforced as they should be so I don’t know what any more regulations would do.
 
It’s Clarence Mortenson and having the pleasure of getting to meet him and ride around he would probably agree with what you say more than not.

I believe the land should be multi use and there are regulations on it already it seems they are not enforced as they should be so I don’t know what any more regulations would do.
Whoops should have looked it up.

True and it reminds me of my most recent discussion with a pro ranching friend. We had a lively debate and he sent a video like many do about a good acting rancher who was forced to stop their unique practices. In the end I agreed to call my representative (D) and say that I think that ranchers should be allowed more leeway for adaptive management practices, provided its for research or a scientifically supported practice. His end of the deal was to call his rep (R) and demand that funding and resources be provided to enforce the existing grazing laws and standards that are on the books.

I felt this was a very good win-win actionable conclusion. He refused to make the call.
 
Please explain how the AUM price of the leases on public land is not welfare when: A) the BLM and USFS spend 3-5x more per year to administer the grazing programs than the revenue collected in lease fees; AND B) the free market AUM price on comparable private lands is consistently much higher than the fees charged by BLM/USFS, often +20x higher.

I'll wait.
i don’t know what the overheard costs are to administer the leases. It is certainly understandable that the AUM equivalent for a ranch-to-ranch lease would be more. How much do you think Warren Buffett pays for a coal mine lease in Western Wyoming? I don’t know the answer, but I doubt it is comparable to the profit. But the value of that coal produced is realized by the public.
Dont lump all ranchers are bad in one group because this moron does not speak for them. I know plenty that are good stewards of the land and wild life thrive on it. Some of them even have buffalo
you are the obvious moron. You keep like company!
 
i don’t know what the overheard costs are to administer the leases. It is certainly understandable that the AUM equivalent for a ranch-to-ranch lease would be more. How much do you think Warren Buffett pays for a coal mine lease in Western Wyoming? I don’t know the answer, but I doubt it is comparable to the profit. But the value of that coal produced is realized by the public.

Are you saying that bison and ecotourism have no value to the public?

@KurtR some of the best deer habitat I have ever guided is on a ranch in eastern Oregon where the rancher does a fantastic job protecting his habitat and doing restoration to the creek bottoms and wetlands. Working hand in hand with NRCS on that and other projects.
 
i don’t know what the overheard costs are to administer the leases. It is certainly understandable that the AUM equivalent for a ranch-to-ranch lease would be more. How much do you think Warren Buffett pays for a coal mine lease in Western Wyoming? I don’t know the answer, but I doubt it is comparable to the profit. But the value of that coal produced is realized by the public.

you are the obvious moron. You keep like company!
you dont know the answer to any thing keep trying rainman
 
i don’t know what the overheard costs are to administer the leases. It is certainly understandable that the AUM equivalent for a ranch-to-ranch lease would be more. How much do you think Warren Buffett pays for a coal mine lease in Western Wyoming? I don’t know the answer, but I doubt it is comparable to the profit. But the value of that coal produced is realized by the public.

you are the obvious moron. You keep like company!
The entire premise of conservation is that it has a value that is realized by the public. It’s the principle of why it’s worth doing. The idea that to conserve has inherent value is a core indispensable tenant of wildlife conservation.

You don’t see that. You only see value in extraction and growth of individual wealth and consumption. You’ve shown that in example after example. You’re posting in the wrong thread and I wish you weren’t associated with the same lifestyle that I love.
 
The irony of the first and second sentences being seriously placed in the same paragraph made me grin.


I just pay my property taxes and don't dig into the assessment. Yours turned a
on an arguable point, not an actual error in assessment.

But, in the end, it is something you actually did, which specifically effects ranchers in your community and thus is related to the quest asked, which you have not answered, by the way.

Very amusingly, most of your arguments against AP actually are ad hominem attacks making wild claims and attacking people associated with the organization rather than addressing the alleged issue you started this thread to discuss or the much better arguments made against your grossly false assertions.
Which facts are you disputing? Blanket statements are worthless…
 
Just some bisonomics from the state where I’m most familiar with wild bison, Utah. Just did some quick napkin math. Gila loves his money, loves it. Looking at the numbers Utahns and nonresidents spend about $1,538,000 on general hunting licenses and application fees just for a chance to hunt Bison. (A disgustingly high number) The lucky few who do then spend $107,420 on tag cost. Annually. This money goes to UDWR.

The APR isn’t running this model and if they did it would be hugely profitable but they would face massive backlash for it. A damned if you do damned if you don’t situation.

However, what it does show is that the species can generate appreciable revenue on our public lands compared to the competition. These herds reside primarily on public lands. To compare you would need 1.22 million aum’s to generate the same revenue or the equivalent of 101,728 cow calf pairs grazing for a year to meet the same revenue as the 1300 huntable bison in Utah generate just in app and tag fees. One money flow goes towards conservation the other goes towards continuing infrastructure cost to keep the cattle on the landscape.

Now obviously should supply go up for Bison then per unit cost should come down. However, there is almost no scenario where the public, particularly the hunting public, doesn’t disproportionately benefit from Bison over cattle in this situation on public land. They simply generate more revenue. This isn’t even including the transport, lodging, gear, guiding, etc.. revenue generated from bison hunting. Which in a per unit basis would out generate the downstream economics of the cattle industry.
 

Since most people on here seem to forget, the rancher is the man (or woman) who feeds us all.
This overly romanticized nostalgia for the rancher. The public land rancher does not feed us all. Hell, the one I knew and helped drive cows for as a youth left trash everywhere, overgrazed, and beat his wife. I do recall getting sandwiches though so you may have a point. I was fed. In the end he became too fat too ride a horse. What a mean miserable man.

The other rancher I worked for had his cattle ranch just so he could get huge tax breaks on his luxury accommodations and recreational land. It was a tax sink for an ultra wealthy dude.

Ranchers don’t feed me. I’d get more food if they produced zero cattle and more wildlife on public land. This is a hunting forum after all. They have a role but they sure aren’t this idealized part of society like you shared. I’ve met some I like for sure. But on average I see their litter and damage more.
 
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