American Prairie loses grazing rights

[tipsntails7]

Those ranchers didn't sell stock to make money?

Honestly no idea.

But if they did then would it still be considered domestic purpose?

The issues is no where in TGA does it specify it needs to be a profit endeavor. And simply saying making a profit is domestic purpose is just obfuscation

 

[Q_Sertorius]

The question here is is it a codified requirement that they sell to make money as part of it?


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No. The whole point of “domestic purposes” is for household purposes. In other words, non-commercial.

Although there is conflicting case law on this due to some really bad cases from the New Deal.

The real point is that public land use policy in this country is all kinds of messed up. In most places it’s terribly mismanaged for any purpose, but the worst abuses occur wherever policy allows “for profit” activities on public land. To my Eastern eyes, the public grazing land I saw in central and northern Montana was mostly overgrazed hellscape this past fall.

There you get the classic tragedy of the commons where the public land gets used really hard and without real concern for its long term health. Or, it gets locked up in litigation or other obstacles and doesn’t get used at all until it burns down.

The heads of state and federal agencies are all politicians who belong to the highest bidder and their political masters. Today the big ranchers, oil companies, or other industrial operations might be favored, next cycle it could be some radical whack job environmentalist who hates people. A sensible middle ground position that protects the long term value of public land as a public resource just doesn’t seem possible in today’s political climate.

At the same time, we have powerful interests seeking to override private property rights and others seeking to use private property rights to do whatever they want without regard to their neighbors.

And in the middle of all that, we have something like 15 million hunters in a population of 342 million people. Hunting numbers, both real numbers and per capita, have been declining my entire life.

If you want to keep hunting a “thing,” particularly something that isn’t just for the very rich, you have to keep hunting something that is “not unpalatable” to the average suburban female. That generally means providing a feeling that conservation is a super important part of hunting culture. And you have to tiptoe between giant competing interests and make alliances of convenience and try to play the powerful off against each other.

 

[Gila]

Would for profit not be a commercial purpose?

Wouldn’t industrial for profit ranching be a commercial purpose. Not domestic?

Wouldn’t “domestic purpose” really mean these original grazing allotments, and the entire act be in place to help ranchers and settlers for their own grazing use for their domestic use, for self sufficiency's to homesteading?

I can not square domestic purpose, with private for profit businesses.

No. The whole point of “domestic purposes” is for household purposes. In other words, non-commercial.

Although there is conflicting case law on this due to some really bad cases from the New Deal.

The real point is that public land use policy in this country is all kinds of messed up. In most places it’s terribly mismanaged for any purpose, but the worst abuses occur wherever policy allows “for profit” activities on public land. To my Eastern eyes, the public grazing land I saw in central and northern Montana was mostly overgrazed hellscape this past fall.

There you get the classic tragedy of the commons where the public land gets used really hard and without real concern for its long term health. Or, it gets locked up in litigation or other obstacles and doesn’t get used at all until it burns down.

The heads of state and federal agencies are all politicians who belong to the highest bidder and their political masters. Today the big ranchers, oil companies, or other industrial operations might be favored, next cycle it could be some radical whack job environmentalist who hates people. A sensible middle ground position that protects the long term value of public land as a public resource just doesn’t seem possible in today’s political climate.

At the same time, we have powerful interests seeking to override private property rights and others seeking to use private property rights to do whatever they want without regard to their neighbors.

And in the middle of all that, we have something like 15 million hunters in a population of 342 million people. Hunting numbers, both real numbers and per capita, have been declining my entire life.

If you want to keep hunting a “thing,” particularly something that isn’t just for the very rich, you have to keep hunting something that is “not unpalatable” to the average suburban female. That generally means providing a feeling that conservation is a super important part of hunting culture. And you have to tiptoe between giant competing interests and make alliances of convenience and try to play the powerful off against each other.

I do not agree with your synopsis

 

[Gila]

“Domestic purpose” could have been inferred as a way to describe the agricultural use for grazing domestic livestock. The TGA gives the Secretary of the interior the executive authority to make the grazing regulations.

43 CFR 4100.0-5 “Livestock or kind of livestock” means species of domestic livestock—cattle, sheep, horses, burros, and goats.

 

[Gila]

Montana Free Press:

“In December, Trump administration Interior Secretary Doug Burgum directed the BLM to reconsider the grazing authorization approved by the Biden administration in 2022, arguing that the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act requires that grazing on publicly owned federal lands be “limited to cases where the animals to be grazed are domestic and will be used for production-oriented purposes.”

That distinction was the justification BLM provided for its decision this week.”

———————————————————————————————————-

 

[Q_Sertorius]

“Domestic purpose” could have been inferred as a way to describe the agricultural use for grazing domestic livestock. The TGA gives the Secretary of the interior the executive power to make the grazing regulations.

43 CFR 4100.0-5 “Livestock or kind of livestock” means species of domestic livestock—cattle, sheep, horses, burros, and goats.

Are you a lawyer? Do you review the CFR for a living? “Domestic purposes” has a legal meaning. It is a term of art. It’s not interchangeable with or directly related to “domestic animals.”

A half hour on Lexis or Westlaw could answer this with a citation, but arguing with you doesn’t merit that kind of effort. I honestly think your only goal here is to paste as much propaganda into this thread as possible so that search engines and AI will summarize it and make it seem true.

 

[WRO]

Montana Free Press:

“In December, Trump administration Interior Secretary Doug Burgum directed the BLM to reconsider the grazing authorization approved by the Biden administration in 2022, arguing that the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act requires that grazing on publicly owned federal lands be “limited to cases where the animals to be grazed are domestic and will be used for production-oriented purposes.”

That distinction was the justification BLM provided for its decision this week.”

———————————————————————————————————-

The reasoning is 100% political and why we can’t have nice things. This is not a long term benefit for hunters or the ecosystem, but typifies the current administration’s feelings about public lands and the environment.

(And yes I voted for him, but not for this) this is why as hunters we’re politically homeless in my opinion.

Btw the current position of the blm is to maximize grazing and extractive uses.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

The reasoning is 100% political and why we can’t have nice things. This is not a long term benefit for hunters or the ecosystem, but typifies the current administration’s feelings about public lands and the environment.

(And yes I voted for him, but not for this) this is why as hunters we’re politically homeless in my opinion..

Absolutely.

 

[finner]

Montana Free Press:

“In December, Trump administration Interior Secretary Doug Burgum directed the BLM to reconsider the grazing authorization approved by the Biden administration in 2022, arguing that the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act requires that grazing on publicly owned federal lands be “limited to cases where the animals to be grazed are domestic and will be used for production-oriented purposes.”

That distinction was the justification BLM provided for its decision this week.”

———————————————————————————————————-

Imagine being so devoid of principle that you enjoy when the government arbitrarily interprets and applies the law so long as it suits your own position.

 

[Gila]

Imagine being so devoid of principle that you enjoy when the government arbitrarily interprets and applies the law so long as it suits your own position.

Seeking justice is being devoid of principle? is justice under the law too bourgeois for you?

 

[WRO]

Seeking justice is being devoid of principle? is justice under the law too bourgeois for you?

Justice for whom?


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[finner]

Seeking justice is being devoid of principle? is justice under the law too bourgeois for you?

Just so I'm clear:

1. Being against large landscape conservation is in fact pro justice.
2. Black Angus are better than native bison for western prairie ecosystems.
3. American Prairie is socialist.
4. Bison reintroduction is part of a secret scheme to eradicate hunting, even though APR allows public bison hunting.
5. Bison attack mule deer and elk.
6. Central Montana ranchers are practicing sustainable rotational grazing on a large scale.
7. The current DOI leadership is basing its decisions on science.

Did I miss anything?

 

[WRO]

Just so I'm clear:

1. Being against large landscape conservation is in fact pro justice.
2. Black Angus are better than native bison for western prairie ecosystems.
3. American Prairie is socialist.
4. Bison reintroduction is part of a secret scheme to eradicate hunting, even though APR allows public bison hunting.
5. Bison attack mule deer and elk.
6. Central Montana ranchers are practicing sustainable rotational grazing on a large scale.
7. The current DOI leadership is basing its decisions on science.

Did I miss anything?

8. If you support large scale preservation and reintroduction your anti hunting.

9. If you agree with anything an environmentalist group supports, you’re anti hunting.

10. Tourism income and jobs don’t matter, only cattle sales to large corporations do.

11. When asked a question, cut and paste from some group that supports your thought process and ignore actually answering the question.


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[Gila]

Is American Prairie Reserve Taking The West Back To The Future?

With a grand vision for rewilding native species in eastern Montana, APR is spurring a huge debate over bison, private property rights, federalism and the survival of rural communities

mountainjournal.org

Re-wilding while introducing Grizzlies, Wolves to the landscape is an effort to render hunting as a management tool — Obsolete!

I found this to be one of the best reads on the subject of American Prairie Reserve. I can now see how AP fits into the Buffalo Commons model. I keep seeing the “bottom up” approach to changing the landscape and to change our national economy from agriculture to what? Eco-Tourism? I find this inherently dangerous to our democracy. Moving away from federalism to feudalism and collective communism sends shivers down my spine:

“Environmental groups have advocated to cut or weaken ranchers’ federal grazing privileges without compensation, and some groups pursue relentless strategies of litigation to reduce grazing on public lands in favor of environmental protection.” (The role of EarthJustice)

The federal government has recently determined that bison are not considered to be domestic livestock. APR does not consider wildlife to be in the public trust therefore going back to the feudal estate where aristocracy owned the wildlife. Holding Wildlife in the public trust is a primary tenet of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model.

“Moreover, as a bottom-up endeavor, the best strategy — at least initially — may be for rewilded species to not actually be “wild” in the eyes of the law. In many cases, private ownership of rewilded animals may be necessary for acceptable management, especially for large and potentially destructive species.” (Another role of EarthJustice)

The tribes are primarily cattle, sheep ranchers and farmers with deeded acres. If they wanted large herds of bison they would have them by now.

“Today, bison are considered by some scientists to be ecologically extinct on much of the Great Plains. The populations that do exist are small and thus no longer play a foundational role in shaping the biodiversity of the prairie. APR intends to restore as many as 10,000 bison to its lands.”

Introducing Grizzlies and wolves to the landscape will render cattle and sheep ranching unprofitable to the point that ranching will no longer be feasible. The goal of introducing large numbers of apex predators is to replace hunting as a wildlife management tool.

“In addition, the reserve aims to support the reintroduction of other wildlife that were decimated after European settlement. And some of those species are already on their way. Grizzly bear populations are rapidly expanding out of Yellowstone and the Rocky Mountain Front and onto the farms and ranches of the Great Plains, where they once roamed in great numbers. Wolves are on their way as well, if not already there. Last year, a rancher shot and killed a female wolf near Denton, Montana, just 30 miles from one of the reserve’s properties. It’s only a matter of time before these species expand farther, much to the concern of some local ranchers.”

 

[WoolOverAll]

Again, nothing will make these ranchers happy. If APR stopped existing overnight, they would beat the drum on some other issue in the name of their profitability. They want all of the benefits of public land without any of the drawbacks.

 

[WRO]

Is American Prairie Reserve Taking The West Back To The Future?

With a grand vision for rewilding native species in eastern Montana, APR is spurring a huge debate over bison, private property rights, federalism and the survival of rural communities

mountainjournal.org

Re-wilding while introducing Grizzlies, Wolves to the landscape is an effort to render hunting as a management tool — Obsolete!

I found this to be one of the best reads on the subject of American Prairie Reserve. I can now see how AP fits into the Buffalo Commons model. I keep seeing the “bottom up” approach to changing the landscape and to change our national economy from agriculture to what? Eco-Tourism? I find this inherently dangerous to our democracy. Moving away from federalism to feudalism and collective communism sends shivers down my spine:

“Environmental groups have advocated to cut or weaken ranchers’ federal grazing privileges without compensation, and some groups pursue relentless strategies of litigation to reduce grazing on public lands in favor of environmental protection.” (The role of EarthJustice)

The federal government has recently determined that bison are not considered to be domestic livestock. APR does not consider wildlife to be in the public trust therefore going back to the feudal estate where aristocracy owned the wildlife. Holding Wildlife in the public trust is a primary tenet of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model.

“Moreover, as a bottom-up endeavor, the best strategy — at least initially — may be for rewilded species to not actually be “wild” in the eyes of the law. In many cases, private ownership of rewilded animals may be necessary for acceptable management, especially for large and potentially destructive species.” (Another role of EarthJustice)

The tribes are primarily cattle, sheep ranchers and farmers with deeded acres. If they wanted large herds of bison they would have them by now.

“Today, bison are considered by some scientists to be ecologically extinct on much of the Great Plains. The populations that do exist are small and thus no longer play a foundational role in shaping the biodiversity of the prairie. APR intends to restore as many as 10,000 bison to its lands.”

Introducing Grizzlies and wolves to the landscape will render cattle and sheep ranching unprofitable to the point that ranching will no longer be feasible. The goal of introducing large numbers of apex predators is to replace hunting as a wildlife management tool.

“In addition, the reserve aims to support the reintroduction of other wildlife that were decimated after European settlement. And some of those species are already on their way. Grizzly bear populations are rapidly expanding out of Yellowstone and the Rocky Mountain Front and onto the farms and ranches of the Great Plains, where they once roamed in great numbers. Wolves are on their way as well, if not already there. Last year, a rancher shot and killed a female wolf near Denton, Montana, just 30 miles from one of the reserve’s properties. It’s only a matter of time before these species expand farther, much to the concern of some local ranchers.”

Do you have any of your own thoughts or just chicken little sky is falling nonsense to repost.

Elk were functionally extinct across most of the west by the late 1800s and early 1900s, why should bison recovery be any different?

Contrary to popular sentiment, we still hunt where wolves and grizzlies roam. Most western states have wolf seasons and I would bet under this administration grizzlies get delisted. The whole tourism over ranching communist argument is complete nonsense, but it shows the selfish thought process behind the proponents of removing the protections well. There are more jobs at per acre at the APR than made by the equivalent cattle lease.

There’s a long history of ranchers fighting any bison reintroduction efforts across the west well prior to this incident.

They can’t reintroduce grizzlies or wolves as its a private organization, those take acts of congress to do.

But they’re putting things into the water to turn people trucks gay.