American Prairie loses grazing rights

[WRO]

I've been on some parcels in MT that were stripped bare by the thousands of sheep they had on it. Not a single huntable animal to be found.

Not mention all of the wild sheep
Die offs and habitat we can’t reintroduce wild sheep to because of domestic sheep.

I can see a place for cattle on public lands, not a place for sheep.


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[PLhunter]

I've been on some parcels in MT that were stripped bare by the thousands of sheep they had on it. Not a single huntable animal to be found.

Even though I drove and branded cattle as a kid and worked a cattle ranch for a summer in college the politics of the modern cattle rancher has left me with only a few points of agreement. Hatred for those land maggots is one of them.

There were 2 million wild sheep on this continent. Now it’s a once in many lifetime chance to hunt them. Because of the rugged nature of their habitat plenty of it remains but is empty. Almost exclusively because of domestic sheep diseases. Hunters should be up in arms about it but instead we stick to the same old logic seen in this thread. “Well what about the poor [insert well resourced and lobbied industry here]?”

 

[NRA4LIFE]

Almost exclusively because of domestic sheep diseases.

No doubt about it. Been happening here in WA for years. And what the vast majority of hunters who put in for an OIL sheep permit for 50+ years don't understand, will never draw one.

 

[PLhunter]

No doubt about it. Been happening here in WA for years. And what the vast majority of hunters who put in for an OIL sheep permit for 50+ years don't understand, will never draw one.

And we just accept that status quo and pass it down in even worse shape for our kids. No real fight from hunters because we are too busy arguing with one another about whether or not wool producers generate more total tax revenue than hunters with the “need more tax revenue from sheep” crowd almost universally being the same crowd that cries “taxation is theft!” in the next browser window over.

We haven’t established a tie between CWD and brain diseases yet but I think the results of a study of severe cognitive dissonance and ingestion of venison would send the CDC into a panic.

 

[CJ19]

The sky isn't falling, every time there's change the whole internet gets tribal and thinks it’s the end of the world as we know it. The reason we have clean water, national parks, public lands, is because people bucked the system.

I'm going to support causes that are good for hunters and conservation, regradless of sponsonship. This is a minor event on the scale, but a step in the right direction from looking at our public lands as a profit center to preserving them. I'm sure the euro trash wants to turn us all gay and take our guns, but we live in a system of checks and balances.

We've lost more cattle on the landscape from market attrition and natural disasters the last decade than 3%.

Why are you opposed to restoring the landscape in a small section of MT?

I didn't mention anything about scale for the american people, just my freezer.

The whole hunting access thing is a red herring. 1) They can't ban hunting on public lands they lease. 2) We have landowners of all political leanings posting no tresspassing signs.

For a counterpoint, we have non ESG public lands ranching locally, the range gets nuked most years and then the ranchers whine to IDFG about the elk hitting their private winter ground because its the only food source left, leading to elk getting slaughtered every winter for cheap beef.

i didnt say i was opposed it. i said i was concerned by the operating model and the entities involved. The Nature Conservancy isn't far off from AP and i don't agree with their politics. I enjoy plenty of NC conservancy's properties and appreciate them for how they manage them. No reason AP can't end up that way but there is certainly risk involved.

as far as your 3% percentage not mattering and "small" section of land in MT and just filling your freezer ect. disagree with all of that.

 

[WRO]

i didnt say i was opposed it. i said i was concerned by the operating model and the entities involved. The Nature Conservancy isn't far off from AP and i don't agree with their politics. I enjoy plenty of NC conservancy's properties and appreciate them for how they manage them. No reason AP can't end up that way but there is certainly risk involved.

as far as your 3% percentage not mattering and "small" section of land in MT and just filling your freezer ect. disagree with all of that.

Facts don’t care about your feelings.

United States Cattle Inventory Report

USDA National Agricultural Statistics Service Information. NASS publications cover a wide range of subjects, from traditional crops, such as corn and wheat, to specialties, such as mushrooms and flowers; from calves born to hogs slaughtered; from agricultural prices to land in farms. The agency...

www.nass.usda.gov

We’re lost more than 3% of the population of cattle in the us in the last 3 years.

My freezers are full, I’m good..

 

[CJ19]

Facts don’t care about your feelings.

United States Cattle Inventory Report

USDA National Agricultural Statistics Service Information. NASS publications cover a wide range of subjects, from traditional crops, such as corn and wheat, to specialties, such as mushrooms and flowers; from calves born to hogs slaughtered; from agricultural prices to land in farms. The agency...

www.nass.usda.gov

We’re lost more than 3% of the population of cattle in the us in the last 3 years.

My freezers are full, I’m good..

Right because your freezer is how agricultural policy across the country should be established. Not an uncommon, but uninformed attitude among hunters. "I got mine, who cares about everyone else". If you think it is somehow a "pwn" on me, its not. I can fill my freezer easily with my own beef or venison without ever stepping foot off my property if and when i choose. Your bizarre ax grinding session with Gila and western ranchers is not really my concern, large amounts of public land and the associated environmental policy does. Beef taken off the market is beef off the market. Its a cumulative effect. And your comment about checks and balances simply does not apply to AP and its private holdings. They can set whatever policies and management practices they want so long as its within the law, which apparently no longer includes Americans subsidizing their bison if I understand this correctly.

 

[isItFallYet]

@rokslideai, please paraphrase this for me!

 

[isItFallYet]

@rokslideai, please paraphrase this for me!

Or someone give the rundown on this so I don’t waste a whole poop reading stupid comments!

 

[WRO]

Right because your freezer is how agricultural policy across the country should be established. Not an uncommon, but uninformed attitude among hunters. "I got mine, who cares about everyone else". If you think it is somehow a "pwn" on me, its not. I can fill my freezer easily with my own beef or venison without ever stepping foot off my property if and when i choose. Your bizarre ax grinding session with Gila and western ranchers is not really my concern. Beef taken off the market is beef off the market. Its a cumulative effect. And your comment about checks and balances simply does not apply to AP and its private holdings. They can set whatever policies and management practices they want so long as its within the law, which apparently no longer includes Americans subsidizing their bison.

So beef is more important than native bison on public land?

I have no issues with ranchers as a general rule, I take issue when the government cowers at their lobby at the expense of our wildlife and wild places.


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[CJ19]

So beef is more important than native bison on public land?

I have no issues with ranchers as a general rule, I take issue when the government cowers at their lobby at the expense of our wildlife and wild places.


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If i am subsidizing agriculture for the animal to be produced and sent to market then yes. But this looks like the intended purpose is conservation or sustainability project. not an agricultural one. legislate the subsides that way or buy deeds.

If you could not hunt on AP's private or the adjacent public land would you feel the same way about it?

 

[medvedyt]

Whoever said they couldn’t?

you should re read the thread ...

 

[WRO]

If i am subsidizing agriculture for the animal to be produced and sent to market then yes. But this looks like the intended purpose is conservation or sustainability project. not an agricultural one. legislate the subsides that way or buy deeds.

If you could not hunt on AP's private or the adjacent public land would you feel the same way about it?

They’re already bought the deeds, these are the allotments that came with them.

It’s a 1.33 per aum per month, I won’t notice the savings, beef prices have been the skyrocketing for a while. These buffalo will make no difference in that.

I can’t hunt a pile of private and locked public nationwide, it’s immaterial in this discussion .

I can’t hunt Yellowstone, I still don’t want to see cattle there.


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[KurtR]

I dont really care one way or another but I don’t know how much time people have spent around bison but they are ass holes. Being in the middle of a pasture with no escape route would suck. I have got to help brand a few times and rounding them up is the rodeos of all rodeos. You get to really feel their power when they are ramming the side of the pick up. On a side note deer were in the same pasture with them all the time. They do taste good.

 

[Sandhills]

The Buffalo Commons is a movement to create a vast nature preserve by returning 139,000 square miles of the shortgrass prairie biome of the Great Plains to native prairie, and by reintroducing the American bison, that once grazed the shortgrass prairie. And of course introduce wolves, grizzlies and lions to control their numbers. The Movement affects ten states: Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Texas, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, and Kansas.

It’s a pipe dream by city folk who think that beef steaks come from grocery stores and hamburger comes from McDonalds. The only bison they have seen is on the Nat Geo channel. Those same ignorant folk are against hunting, fishing and trapping. They are the same ones that want to take our guns away. And they are the same ones who want to put those cute little kitties and puppies into places they don’t belong!

I hope some of you people wake up and smell the coffee, because if things continue on the current path, not only will there be no places to hunt, we won’t be hunting or shooting at all!

Its all agenda 21 bs. Same as the Yellowstone to the Yukon project.


If buffalo actually tasted worth a shit and weren't so damn mean and hard to work more people would probably be in support of it. Around Ft. Niobrara NWR they fence it with woven wire fence and use 12 inch diameter post for their line posts and REA poles as the corner post. Buffalo still get out. I worked the roundup there one fall. It's open to the public so if you want first hand experience with wild buffalo go and watch it. Seeing a cow buffalo run by on three legs and another with half her guts hanging out because a bull hooked her was a crazy experience. Even 10 feet above the sonsabitches I still felt like I was too close.

 

[PLhunter]

Its all agenda 21 bs. Same as the Yellowstone to the Yukon project.


If buffalo actually tasted worth a shit and weren't so damn mean and hard to work more people would probably be in support of it. Around Ft. Niobrara NWR they fence it with woven wire fence and use 12 inch diameter post for their line posts and REA poles as the corner post. Buffalo still get out. I worked the roundup there one fall. It's open to the public so if you want first hand experience with wild buffalo go and watch it. Seeing a cow buffalo run by on three legs and another with half her guts hanging out because a bull hooked her was a crazy experience. Even 10 feet above the sonsabitches I still felt like I was too close.

Bison are wildlife why do they need to be easy to work with to be on a landscape? We demand elk are easy to work with before allowing them to be on the landscape? Since when do we as hunters advocate for only meek gentle animals?

Anyone who thinks bison taste bad has never had a wild free range bison cooked anything close to competently. My kid had it at 5 and still says the bison ribs I cooked were the best food he’s ever eaten.

Hunters on a conservation subreddit advocating against wildlife and interconnected habitats. Insane.

Like how does one hunt and spend time in wild places and not think something like a massive contiguous grassland habitat with a bunch of wild animals in it sound like anything less than paradise?

 

[270-300]

Ive never seen some uneducated people be so confident. You need to look at any place that has bison. From eastern plains to yellow stone, wind river reservation, antelope island in great salt lake. All have bison. All have every other game animal. Antelope island used to have big horn sheep right next to bison. Cattle are invasive bovines from europe. Bison are native. Bison cause far less grazing damage to our lands than cattle.

The real story here is cattle producers are mad they are losing out to bison. One day federally grazed free range bison will be a big meat market.

 

[270-300]

Its all agenda 21 bs. Same as the Yellowstone to the Yukon project.


If buffalo actually tasted worth a shit and weren't so damn mean and hard to work more people would probably be in support of it. Around Ft. Niobrara NWR they fence it with woven wire fence and use 12 inch diameter post for their line posts and REA poles as the corner post. Buffalo still get out. I worked the roundup there one fall. It's open to the public so if you want first hand experience with wild buffalo go and watch it. Seeing a cow buffalo run by on three legs and another with half her guts hanging out because a bull hooked her was a crazy experience. Even 10 feet above the sonsabitches I still felt like I was too close.

They are tough. They are a wild native animal. Invasive bovine cattle are bred to be helpless. Ever wonder why horses and cattle stay inside 4 foot tall fences?
Bison breaking fences is not an issue with bison. Thats an issue with fences. No public land should contain cattle fences.

 

[270-300]

Bison are wildlife why do they need to be easy to work with to be on a landscape? We demand elk are easy to work with before allowing them to be on the landscape? Since when do we as hunters advocate for only meek gentle animals?

Anyone who thinks bison taste bad has never had a wild free range bison cooked anything close to competently. My kid had it ate 5 and still says the bison ribs I cooked were the best food he’s ever eaten.

Hunters on a conservation subreddit advocating against wildlife and interconnected habitats. Insane.

Like how does one hunt and spend time in wild places and not think something like a massive contiguous grassland habitat with a bunch of wild animals in it sound like anything less than paradise?

You would be amazed, at the ammount of people who draw desirable tags for wilderness areas, and then drive 4 wheelers into the wilderness areas because they dont want to hunt on foot. A vast majority of people who hunt think its cool on tv and have no desire to enjoy nature or pristine wilderness.

 

[tipsntails7]

If i am subsidizing agriculture for the animal to be produced and sent to market then yes. But this looks like the intended purpose is conservation or sustainability project. not an agricultural one. legislate the subsides that way or buy deeds.

If you could not hunt on AP's private or the adjacent public land would you feel the same way about it?

we can talk about subsidies all day, an their rightful use or not, but AP isn’t making money on this. Are they paying less than they would to expand their effective dollars compared to private land? Yes for sure. But the argument could be made, they are paying the AUM to make the habitat better and expand access overall, while from my understanding making basically zero dollars from the value of the animal. They do not rely on these subsidies to stay afloat or make a profit.

AP can’t just ban hunting on public lands, but lets for a second say they have a magic wand and could., and let’s take the extreme. If it’s for the betterment of the wildlife and the landscape then have at it. I would rather have 50 Yellowstone's, than 50 commercial cattle ranches if those were my only two choices. I would rather have wild places, with wild animals restored as close as we can after ruining it, then cattle roaming all over it

I think a lot of hunters have forgotten what being a “conservationist” is. It’s not about what the animal can do for you, it’s not about maximizing your personal and selfish opportunities.

Hunters talk a great game but it seems we continue to get farther and farther away from being stewards of the land, and it’s turned to a “how does this benefit me” not how dos this benefit the animals, ecosystem or landscape in general.

Not sure what happened, we used to hold wild places with such reverence.. apparently we’d rather see cattle and fences all over it now.

Shame.