American Prairie loses grazing rights

[Sandhills]

Ok...
Didn't know usfws had them.
Most or all of MT is USFS or BLM
This thread is talking about BLM

Ranchers have to pay out of their own pocket for any fencing, water hole improvements, etc. The Taylor Grazing Act, which sets the price for BLM Allotments was passed in 1934. Lots of ranches have been grazing those areas since before the BLM even existed. A buck 73 or whatever the allotment fees are might seem cheap at a glance but really when you factor in the other costs it's not.

 

[Gila]

Please explain how the AUM price of the leases on public land is not welfare when: A) the BLM and USFS spend 3-5x more per year to administer the grazing programs than the revenue collected in lease fees; AND B) the free market AUM price on comparable private lands is consistently much higher than the fees charged by BLM/USFS, often +20x higher.

I'll wait.

Once you understand the system and why we have checkerboards to begin with, you won’t whine about lease fees. If cattle ranchers can’t lease BLM for reasonable fees, then the Gov’t will sell off BLM grazing lands to the highest bidder which will not include organizations like ARP. Public land activists like Newberg and BHA are shooting themselves in the foot with their stance to eradicate family owned cattle ranches and BLM grazing. And furthermore - Montana, Wyoming, South Dakota, North Dakota state legislatures will never allow conservation leases on cattle ranches either. I have said this before, not to be confused with the Conservation Reserve Program which has been a good thing for the landowner and hunter, angler.

 

[Marbles]

Ranchers have to pay out of their own pocket for any fencing, water hole improvements, etc. The Taylor Grazing Act, which sets the price for BLM Allotments was passed in 1934. Lots of ranches have been grazing those areas since before the BLM even existed. A buck 73 or whatever the allotment fees are might seem cheap at a glance but really when you factor in the other costs it's not.

Of course, fencing and water are free to the rest of us if we decide to raise livestock. Poor discriminated against ranchers, we should start a go-fund-me for them.

 

[Gila]

I would swing that sword the other way and see your posts as knowing misinformation to push an agenda. But, I really don't care enough to argue over it.

I have given you the facts and you are labeling it as mis-information for what purpose? My agenda and my only agenda, the same agenda I have held for 40 years — is to advance hunting and fishing opportunity. The first and most obvious AGENDA is to have a place to hunt: ON PUBLIC AS WELL AS PRIVATE lands. That correlates to the number of tags that are put into the public draw.

 

[Sandhills]

Of course, fencing and water are free to the rest of us if we decide to raise livestock. Poor discriminated against ranchers, we should start a go-fund-me for them.

That'd make you a rancher no? So you'ld have to pay the fee just the same as them.

I'm sure half the people who bitch about ranchers ruining public ground are doing so while wearing leather footwear, have leather furniture in the home, leather seats in their vehicles, and eat beef like it's M&Ms.... Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[Axlrod]

Ranchers have to pay out of their own pocket for any fencing, water hole improvements, etc. The Taylor Grazing Act, which sets the price for BLM Allotments was passed in 1934. Lots of ranches have been grazing those areas since before the BLM even existed. A buck 73 or whatever the allotment fees are might seem cheap at a glance but really when you factor in the other costs it's not.

Thanks, i know how it works, my family has been ranching since my great grandfather started in 1918.

 

[Marbles]

I have given you the facts and you are labeling it as mis-information for what purpose? My agenda and my only agenda, the same agenda I have held for 40 years — is to advance hunting and fishing opportunity. The first and most obvious AGENDA is to have a place to hunt: ON PUBLIC AS WELL AS PRIVATE lands. That correlates to the number of tags that are put into the public draw.

My assumption is you set the standard as you want it applied to you.

See, you started labeling the arguments of others as knowingly false information, you set the standard that rather then seeing this as a complex discussion that can be approached from many angles, those who disagree with you are evil.

Your "facts" and extrapolation from them don't hold up as indisputable. Several good counterpoints have been made by others.

 

[earrow]

Out of curiosity, does the ARP pay local county taxes on their deeded land?

 

[Gila]

My assumption is you set the standard as you want it applied to you.

See, you started labeling the arguments of others as knowingly false information, you set the standard that rather then seeing this as a complex discussion that can be approached from many angles, those who disagree with you are evil.

Your "facts" and extrapolation from them don't hold up as indisputable. Several good counterpoints have been made by others.

Your circular logic only tends to show your ignorance about the issue.

 

[WRO]

That'd make you a rancher no? So you'ld have to pay the fee just the same as them.

I'm sure half the people who bitch about ranchers ruining public ground are doing so while wearing leather footwear, have leather furniture in the home, leather seats in their vehicles, and eat beef like it's M&Ms.... Hypocrisy at its finest.

Less than 3% of the US beef supply comes from public land ranching.

You can still have concerns and see the bull shit around it and have leather seats and enjoy steaks without being a hypocrite.

 

[Axlrod]

According to a story from Outdoor Life, of the 600,000 acres in Montana that American Prairie manages, over 500,000 acres are being leased back to local cattle ranchers. Facts somehow left out of the OP's story of woe.

BLM Says American Prairie's Bison Can No Longer Graze on Public Lands

The U.S. Department of the Interior has decided to revoke American Prairie's bison grazing permits on BLM land in Montana.

www.outdoorlife.com

 

[Gila]

Plenty of reputable citations have been provided about the differences in bison grazing vs cattle.

The research I have seen has convinced me that the difference in grazing habits between the two are not enough to justify a preference for granting a grazing lease to either one. Fact is the fences needed to keep bison contained are different. I understand that ARP has stated that they are paying for the fencing as it should be. So really it’s a moot point. The problem is grazing “zoo animals” not to be consumed.

The access across APR lands to get to public land in holdings, including for hunting, is verifiable fact. Being allowed to hunt on APR lands is verifiable fact.

I have never even attempted to dispute those “facts”. But don’t confuse dangling carrots in front of the horse with “allowing” a small parcel of land (80K ?) to be hunted. The 60 thousand dollar question is now that ARP can’t graze bison on BLM lands, will they continue to allow crossing to that BLM land?

 

[Jpsmith1]

Anti-capitalists maybe?

From AP:

“Today wolves and grizzly bears are often associated with mountain habitats, but scientific evidence and firsthand accounts indicate that they adapted specifically for life in the open grasslands. Grizzly bears and wolves are expanding their ranges from their current habitats in the mountains to the south and west of the American Prairie region. Initial evidence of grizzly bears has been found on American Prairie property, and it is expected that both species – grizzlies and wolves – will eventually recolonize the Missouri River Breaks area through natural immigration. Mountain lions have already done so and are now found in low populations in both the Little Rocky Mountains and the Missouri River Breaks. Black bears also have recolonized the Bears Paw Mountains and Little Rocky Mountains.

In addition to providing sanctuary for carnivores on our properties, we are working with our communities and partners to develop and promote non-lethal management tools to reduce human-wildlife conflict in anticipation of the return of grizzly bears and wolves to the landscape. We are actively growing the Wild Sky program, which pays landowners for tolerating wildlife. We also are working with other non-profit groups to build public acceptance of carnivores in the region, we are continuing general outreach and promoting active discussion on living with wildlife, and we are collaborating with agencies to promote conflict reduction programs and practices.”
—————————————————————————-

AP intends to connect 3 million acres for predator management.

Not EVERYTHING needs to be done for a profit.

I think that distancing ourselves, as a society, from the idea that EVERYTHING needs to turn a profit would benefit all of us. Especially when we look to the outdoors. Our lands and the animals upon them are things that should actively be shielded from the idea that they must make a profit or they're useless.

 

[Gila]

According to a story from Outdoor Life, of the 600,000 acres in Montana that American Prairie manages, over 500,000 acres are being leased back to local cattle ranchers. Facts somehow left out of the OP's story of woe.

BLM Says American Prairie's Bison Can No Longer Graze on Public Lands

The U.S. Department of the Interior has decided to revoke American Prairie's bison grazing permits on BLM land in Montana.

www.outdoorlife.com

Some outdoor writers support ARP and are politically motivated so I’m not really impressed with their “numbers”.

 

[Marbles]

Your circular logic only tends to show your ignorance about the issue.

Somebody doesn't like having their behavior reflected back to them.

That'd make you a rancher no? So you'ld have to pay the fee just the same as them.

I'm sure half the people who bitch about ranchers ruining public ground are doing so while wearing leather footwear, have leather furniture in the home, leather seats in their vehicles, and eat beef like it's M&Ms.... Hypocrisy at its finest.

Ever heard of a farmer?

Do you really believe the 94-98% of cattle raised on private in the US don't need money spent on fences and water? Or that those ranchers/farmers/cattleman don't pay taxes on land they own that in some cases are more than a grazing lease?