Am I missing something?

[rcb2000]

Morning Roksliders, I’ll try to not name companies here out of respect , but it will be obvious anyways.

In the past year a few companies have come out with some products that are similar to ones you can get from US made companies, lightweight teepees and titanium stoves.

Choosing to outsource them from Asia, usually is for cost savings, and generally translates to a savings to the consumer. I say usually, because as I type this on my iPhone made in Asia, I know there’s not a better/cheaper alternative, and I’m fine with that.

There are two new teepees out there, and both are pretty similar to an option you can get from a US made company.

US made:
4 person, 2 with stove
Complete weight - canopy, stakes, carbon pole - 55 oz / 3 lb 7 oz
30 Denier Nylon 6.6 Ripstop
$418.50 (looks like a sale price)

Asia made 1:
4 person, 2 with stove
System without Footprint: 3 lb 3.4 oz
20D Silnylon
$645

Asia made 2:
4 person, 2 with stove
Weight with 8 stakes- 3 lb 2 oz with stove jack attached and their carbon pole.
Rip stop Silpoly
$468


US made stove:
Weight of Stove including Damper, legs, hardware, and Storage bag, is 45 oz (with a 5’ pipe)
Burn Chamber 8.25" Tall / 8.25" Wide / 14" long
$422 with stove pipe


Asia made stove:
2 lb 7 oz
Stove Box Assembled Size- 15"L x 8.5"W x 9"H
$435 with stove pipe


I guess my question is, if a product isn’t higher quality, cheaper price, or noticeably more lightweight, why choose to spend more or same for a product from over seas?

For anyone that would toss in the political element based on recent threads, I’d say the Asian made element makes it a moot point, but your mileage may vary.

Hope to keep this a civil conversation, but hey, I did post this in General.

 

[gabenzeke]

This is one of the very few instances where I'm not buying American. Making my purchases this year. That company will never see another dime from me. Hopefully another American company swoops in to take that business at some point.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[mxgust]

I have a teepee from that American company that I’ve used for around 5-6 years now. I put a few holes in it over time and one summer ruined a zipper (my fault) in some really fine silty dust. They replaced the zippers and actually fixed the holes for 15 bucks and shipping costs. Communication was great, I was surprised and blown away at the service. I was prepared to buy a new one

 

[GSPHUNTER]

In my opinion everyones experience is different, that is why when your read reviews, they go from one star clear up to five stars. I personally have had exceptional experiences with a certain produce, but my friend had exact opposite take on same product from same manufacture.

 

[Traveler]

apathy. Most people don’t spend that much time checking origin of products. And one feature or two can tip a decision to one product or another.

 

[MightyWhitey]

Yeah I don’t understand it either. No way I’d pay American made prices for an Asian made product.
I feel the same way about Sitka and Forloh.
Similar retail price, one is made in multiple Asian countries (a lot in China) and the other is sourced and made in the US. Then I find out that Sitka gives a 40% discount to guides and law enforcement. Forloh gives 15-20% I think. That tells me all I need to know about how high Sitka’s Asian products are marked up. I don’t want to support that level of greed.

 

[ScottS_71]

Yeah I don’t understand it either. No way I’d pay American made prices for an Asian made product.
I feel the same way about Sitka and Forloh.
Similar retail price, one is made in multiple Asian countries (a lot in China) and the other is sourced and made in the US. Then I find out that Sitka gives a 40% discount to guides and law enforcement. Forloh gives 15-20% I think. That tells me all I need to know about how high Sitka’s Asian products are marked up. I don’t want to support that level of greed.

Sitka is the most overrated ripoff fanboy company out there

 

[Marble]

Products listed as the same material sometimes are, but sometimes the actual material is different even though they are listed as the same. One plastic buckle isn't the same as another, 500 cordura isn't all the same, etc. I'm not saying that's the case here, but I would look into it.

And the price of the product is t all you are paying for. Service after purchase is very important.

I cherry-pick products from various companies. I don't have all of one brand of anything. I pick what I need based on all factors involved. American made and sourced is a big one, but not a deal breaker.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

[rcb2000]

This is one of the very few instances where I'm not buying American. Making my purchases this year. That company will never see another dime from me. Hopefully another American company swoops in to take that business at some point.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

That poses a question, if you have to choose between buying from an American made company that doesn’t support 2A, or give your money to China, what would you do?

I can see both sides completely.

On one hand, I’d rather support an American made company, that employs Americans, and happens to have an owner that doesn’t see eye to eye with my political views.

On the other I have an iPhone from China, so how big of a deal is it if I buy a teepee from there?

 

[MightyWhitey]

That poses a question, if you have to choose between buying from an American made company that doesn’t support 2A, or give your money to China, what would you do?

I can see both sides completely.

On one hand, I’d rather support an American made company, that employs Americans, and happens to have an owner that doesn’t see eye to eye with my political views.

On the other I have an iPhone from China, so how big of a deal is it if I buy a teepee from there?

I’m with you there. It’s a tough spot.
But my answer is buy the least amount from China that’s necessary. If there’s a US option, buy that.

If you’re an American company that’s taking advantage piss poor working conditions in a communist country for huge profit margins, you’re a dirtbag.

Here’s another scenario that I just can’t comprehend. American companies that actually make American made products, but when they make their T-shirt they put flags and patriotic themes all around their brand logo on an Asian made shirt!? What is wrong with you?! I’m talking to you Marsupial gear!

And yes i called them on the phone about it.

 

[gabenzeke]

That poses a question, if you have to choose between buying from an American made company that doesn’t support 2A, or give your money to China, what would you do?

I can see both sides completely.

On one hand, I’d rather support an American made company, that employs Americans, and happens to have an owner that doesn’t see eye to eye with my political views.

On the other I have an iPhone from China, so how big of a deal is it if I buy a teepee from there?

In theory at least, these Chinese companies aren't voting to take away my rights. They're going to have to come here and fight me for it. That other company is here and advocating and voting for taking my rights.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[*zap*]

meaningful actions are important, focus on what you can change.

 

[HuntHarder]

Sitka is the most overrated ripoff fanboy company out there

Bold statement.. I have used and owned lots of "higher end" camo. Sitka's nice stuff is by far my favorite and performs best in rough conditions.

Which camo do you like better?

 

[SWOHTR]

I understand reasoning both ways.

U.K. Royal Navy ‘Distressed and Concerned’ by Illegal Chinese Salvage of WWII Wrecks - USNI News

An illegal Chinese salvage operation is raiding two United Kingdom World War II warship wrecks off the coast of Malaysia for scrap steel, aluminum and brass fittings, prompting a statement of concern from the Royal Navy, USNI News has learned. Chuan Hong 68 used a large dredging crane to pluck...

news.usni.org

 

[ForlohFamily]

Yeah I don’t understand it either. No way I’d pay American made prices for an Asian made product.
I feel the same way about Sitka and Forloh.
Similar retail price, one is made in multiple Asian countries (a lot in China) and the other is sourced and made in the US. Then I find out that Sitka gives a 40% discount to guides and law enforcement. Forloh gives 15-20% I think. That tells me all I need to know about how high Sitka’s Asian products are marked up. I don’t want to support that level of greed.

American Made Matters

Made in American Matters More Than Ever Supporting U.S. based businesses reinforces the strength of our Nation and our local communities.Buying American-Made products surpasses simple patriotism ... it provides the best solution for building our economy. When you purchase from American...

forloh.com

 

[traildust]

That poses a question, if you have to choose between buying from an American made company that doesn’t support 2A, or give your money to China, what would you do?

I can see both sides completely.

On one hand, I’d rather support an American made company, that employs Americans, and happens to have an owner that doesn’t see eye to eye with my political views.

On the other I have an iPhone from China, so how big of a deal is it if I buy a teepee from there?

Everybody here buys chyna shiat.....almost no way around it. I'll buy American if I can, but it's harder and harder to find American made products.

 

[displacedtexan]

meaningful actions are important, focus on what you can change.

Exactly.

Why pick a hill to die on for nothing?

 

[DenimChicken]

Some interesting points so far.

Adding fuel to the fire, I think some of the hunting celebs endorsing certain brands and having hour long commercials that are disguised as podcasts has really supported some of the Chinese made products.

 

[Macintosh]

Some somewhat-on-topic rambling off the top of my head...I can guess the one company but am not familiar with hot tents in general so no idea who the other company is. I'm mainly referring to outdoor companies in general, as I have spent the last 20+ years working for several outdoor companies in sourcing and manufacturing and planning and I know the margin structure of many of the market segments pretty intimately.

• I dont think most people care. Much of the business stuff that affects this is interesting to me, but to most people it's "not my problem", they only care about getting what they want in a way that is most advantageous to them. It's also sometimes hard or impossible to decide who best deserves your support, or even know who you are supporting...is it a US company, or is it a US-based company with foreign investors, or is it a foreign company...sometimes hard to tell without effort. Is it better to support a US company with a political stance you dont like, or a foreign company? How about a 50-person US company with asian manufacturing, versus a foreign company with a 50-person USA branch that uses asian manufacturing? I think a lot of people just throw up their hands if they dont have a crystal-clear answer to all of the above, and just make case-by-case judgements and buy what seems to make sense for them in that particular case.
• asian manufacturing comes in all flavors, from really crappy to exceptionally good, and from very cheap to very expensive. It is not accurate to characterize it in a general sense as different from US manufacturing, except to compare specific manufacturing facilities and specific products. In general, companies choose to produce in China or other asian countries because it's easier to find a facility to make what you want at the quality that you want, when you want it; the manufacturing company structures in many areas of manufacturing make it easier for a US brand to design, develop and produce a product than it typically is to do that full cycle domestically; fabric and material sourcing is generally in asia so you dont have to figure in nearly as much TIME for shipping raw materials to a factory--this timeline is critically important for a companies finances as well as managing the risk of producing/buying inventory; and China generally works on the US dollar so compared to other foreign options cost is more predictable than other foreign countries by virtue of not being subject to currency exchange rates between when you book production and when you sell the product. An asian product might be better quality, it might be worse quality, or it could be virtually identical quality, we have no idea in a general sense based only on one being made in the US and one in Asia. But its important to keep in mind becasue I think a lot of people have unrealistic impressions of what the full scope of "asian manufacturing" really means.
• Making and selling products is a for-profit business. It's not a charity, you dont sell the product at the lowest price you can get away with, you sell the product at what the market will bear...if the market leader is $500 and you want to be in the same conversation as "equal", you are going to price it near $500 even if you dont have to. (and if you can't...you might have to either raise your price significantly, or stop making it). It's the US, so if you are making $ hand over fist, you can put that $ into marketing, development, etc to grow, with the added incentive of avoiding paying taxes.
• Lots of companies have very different business models. It used to be that brick and mortar retail was all there was--a company had to sell through retail, and the retailer margin was more or less fixed per-product-category. example, a jacket you buy for $300, the retailer generally buys for 150, minus a booking discount (becasue literally every competitor offers a 50% margin, so if you dont, unless you have a proprietary technology that a retailer cant afford not to sell, why would you buy a product you make less$ on instead of one you can make more on?). If the company has $100 into that jacket to produce it and get it to their warehouse, their margin is only 33% or $50 to pay for their overhead, sales effort, marketing, etc. The direct to consumer brands obviously have a higher gross margin from cost to retail price, but they also have the cost of wherever they sell it--their website, fulfillment, customer service, etc, as well as the increased uncertainty becasue they generally have fewer of their customer orders in hand when they produce, so it can be harder to finance production. Then there are more vertical companies like sitka (owned by WL gore) that actually own the fabric company as well as the finished goods company, as well as sell to both retail and direct to consumer....it gets messy. Suffice to say the internal margin structure before a company starts sinking their margin back into amazon marketing (or whatever) to avoid paying taxes, isnt uniform across the market. Guess what...the 40% off "pro discount" is probably at or above the price they sell that same product to retailers, becasue thats how the retail margin structure works and thats what virtually every outdoor company in the US offers. It's literally free "influencer-marketing" that nearly every company out there does and considers just another one of their sales channels. If another company has chosen a different business model and doesnt have the margin to offer that...well, it's the bed they made, they get to sleep in it, but without a look at their income statement it's impossible to say from a distance if thats because their product actually costs more to produce (which we assume means better), or if its just becasue they have limited production and they need to recoup the RETAIL value of that product in order to pay their marketing bills to stay on their growth plan.