Am I missing something? How much do environmentals affect trajectory?

[West2East]

New-ish long range shooter here. I recently bought a Tikka 6.5CM for my wife and I've been doing a LOT more shooting as a result. For this discussion, assume shooting out to 800yds and hunting out to 500yds.
I live basically at sea level and I try to get shooting at elevation every once in a while. After reading several threads, watching THLR videos and getting out and shooting myself, I'm starting to question how much things like temperature, Elevation, pressure, etc. affect the trajectory of a bullet.
On here, I have learned to start compiling all of this into a DA number using a simple DA chart, with a "close" temperature and the elevation off of ONX. I plug that into Strelok and get my MOA adjustment. Strelok allows you to have a DA input, which has been nice.
My original data from my usual(sight-in) and my original velocity truing @474 yds was done at a DA of 1250. The actual elevation is somewhere around 480ft.
Last week I was Shooting at a DA of 3500 with the actual elevation being about 3300ft. I found that the difference in elevation adjustment between the 2 areas was about 1/4 MOA. This was out to 800yds.
When I got back, I started making up quick cards for a few different DA's that I figured I may have during Hunting season and I noticed that unless you have swings of almost 3000-5000DA. The actual DOPE adjustments aren't very significant and may actually get lost in the noise of field position shooting. It almost seems like I could get by with 1 maybe 2 cards for the spectrum of DAs that I'll have while hunting.
First of all, am I doing something wrong? Second, how can this be true and then you get articles or comments implying that it is highly important that you take your shooting environmentals into consideration? Which when you factor those into a DA, it really doesn't seem to matter unless you were in an area with Wild swings of DA.
Thanks for any info that can be provided. I know DA is being talked about quite a bit in other threads but I didn't want to clutter up one of them with this question.

 

[Macintosh]

I think in a general sense if you are only talking about a couple thousand feet elevation, it’s probably not going to make that big of a difference inside of most folks hunting ranges—you can see it in your dope but but the difference is minimal. Where you start to see a difference is when you combine longer ranges, with very different temperatures (say going from 90f to 20f) with something like a 10,000 foot elevation jump (remember a lot of hunting in the west happens at or near 10k’ elevation), and then you stack that error on top of all of the other sources of error.

Example, at my current da of 2200’ my 6.5cm dope at 800 is 6.6mils. At 11000’ its 5.9mils. A .7mil difference is 7cm per 100m, so roughly a foot and half of error on target. When you combine that with the actual precision of the gun at range, and any sort of wobble, the difference could have me realistically missing a target by multiple feet. Yet, with the same change my 300 yard dope is only .1mil different—a little over an inch at 300 yards.

 

[Shortschaf]

I tried hard cards for a while and they always sucked when trying to hit anything past 500 yards

Live data was key to my limited success past that. Emphasis on "limited". 800 yards is quite a poke in my opinion without a robust way of collecting live environmentals

 

[West2East]

@Macintosh that's the train of thought I was on. I live in Western Oregon and hunt in the east part so potentially a DA of 1000 to 7000 in the areas I hunt. I was just trying to wrap my head around the idea that it may not be as "scary" or hard to get close enough environmentals to make those shots.


@Shortschaf I was using the rough DA with a range to get my dial-up on Strelok, so I wasn't using hard cards for that. But in the effort of trying to shorten all of that time from DA card to phone to dialing, I was developing hard cards. I was very surprised though that I made a first round impact (3ish MOA rock) at 800yds using the +/- 5 degrees Temp and elevation for the DA. And my point of impact at least elevation wise was right on level for my point of aim.

All of this has pushed me more into paying attention to wind though once I saw that the come-up on the turrets can be somewhat simplified.
Again, 800yds is just what I was pushing myself out to, not necessarily where I feel comfortable right now.

 

[Shortschaf]

It almost seems like I could get by with 1 maybe 2 cards for the spectrum of DAs that I'll have while hunting

Yeah going back to your initial post, I have no beef with this idea.

At first I thought you were saying "1 or 2 hard cards total, to cover all circumstances"

If you are diligent about checking the forecast and elevations you expect to hunt, and then making/selecting the cards to suit that day/area, that's a decent plan IMO.

I personally elected to buy and use rf binos with onboard sensors and ballistics (and weathermeter for a backup) for my shooting. It is very streamlined, but of course comes with a heftier price tag

 

[Fireflyfishing]

remember a lot of hunting in the west happens at or near 10k’ elevation)

Not true at all. That’s not even true in CO. Although CO does have quite a bit of hunting in that elevation range.

 

[West2East]

I guess I didn't have an issue with what was said in terms of elevation as I have areas where I can hunt right at sea level and end up with a negative DA and up to 8-9,000 ft where the DA could be 10,000.
And when you look at these charts, 8,000 - 10,000 ft actual elevation seems to not have a huge impact and depending on the distance and size of target it may not be the biggest concern.

This popped into my head because I read a post in the Long Range tips where an individual's shots on an animal were being critiqued and it was stated that the individual shooting did not account for his shooting elevation. It made me re-think what I've been noticing and trying to implement in my shooting. Especially when I am factoring in Elevation and it doesn't seem to be the reason I would miss.
Again, my miss(my own anecdotal evidence) is more than likely going to come from a miss call on the wind or improper technique.

 

[SDHNTR]

People spend too much time crunching numbers and not enough time hunting.

 

[West2East]

Well that's what has pushed me to start shooting and getting the experience myself. And I'm finding the numbers to not be the mystical math equations I thought before starting getting (high-ish) round counts down range.

 

[Macintosh]

Not true at all. That’s not even true in CO. Although CO does have quite a bit of hunting in that elevation range.

How is this “not true at all”? “A lot” does not mean “most”. A lot means “enough that it shouldnt really raise eyebrows to hear someone is hunting above 9,000’ elevation”, ie at or near 10,000’. Thats high but not outlandish elk and deer hunting elevation for earlier part of rifle seasons where Ive been in at least 4 western states. Of anything I said, I dont think thats controversial…and even if its a bit higher than normal the point I was making is that going from 1000’ to 3500’ da as in the op’s example is a pretty small jump in altitude compared to what many people experience going from 1000’ (or less) up to 6,000, 7,000, 8000, ie more normal elevations for much of the later rifle seasons. The elk I shot in 2020 was at 9500’ and we were hunting (and finding fresh sign) at treeline around 11000’ that morning.

 

[Stocky]

How is this “not true at all”? “A lot” does not mean “most”. A lot means “enough that it shouldnt really raise eyebrows to hear someone is hunting above 9,000’ elevation”, ie at or near 10,000’. Thats high but not outlandish elk and deer hunting elevation for earlier part of rifle seasons where Ive been in at least 4 western states. Of anything I said, I dont think thats controversial…and even if its a bit higher than normal the point I was making is that going from 1000’ to 3500’ da as in the op’s example is a pretty small jump in altitude compared to what many people experience going from 1000’ (or less) up to 6,000, 7,000, 8000, ie more normal elevations for much of the later rifle seasons. The elk I shot in 2020 was at 9500’ and we were hunting (and finding fresh sign) at treeline around 11000’ that morning.

Season dependent I'd say anyone hunting earlier season dates could very likely be in the 10k plus realm. I spend September chasing Mule deer last year and seldom dropped under 11k. I picked that sort of country however and was using a muzzleloader. I did however find myself chasing elk in Montana above 10k more than a few times in October. I'd say the majority aren't at 10k based on people not actually getting that far in during traditional rifle seasons but I'd hardly say the statement "Not true at all" is anymore accurate than the statement its in response to.

 

[TaperPin]

Well that's what has pushed me to start shooting and getting the experience myself. And I'm finding the numbers to not be the mystical math equations I thought before starting getting (high-ish) round counts down range.

To 500 to 600 yards many of us ignore everything other than distance and wind. Even if someone figures in every variable known to man, wind will always be the hardest to estimate and have the most effect. Past 600 yards is different and there’s no way around paying attention to all the details.

You can also cheat wind calculations in the first 300 yards, by ignoring the shorter distances and treat all wind calls up to 300 the same. With a 6.5 PRC, 7 mag, or similar fast moving cartridges that’s usually very close to 2 moa (10 mph). At 100 or 200 yards if you mis, it won’t be because the 2 moa over estimated wind drift.

Wind call at 550 to 600 will be very close to 4 moa with the same PRC - makes remembering pretty easy.

Each person in the type of country they shoot in will have different amounts of error in what they call before the shot. If wind is very consistent and easy to read it might be 20%, and in tough conditions 50%. It’s also good to know if you normally over or under estimate. I typically under estimate so fractions of moa I normally round up. The 500 yard shooting challenges on the YouTube are good examples of error in wind reading.

As always, take one bullet and a 10” paper plate and pin it to a tree limb waaaaay out there at what seems like your personal max range. You either hit it or you don’t. The nephew and I will drive an hour or two with only one cartridge in the truck. All the effort, hassle and time adds to the shooting stress - makes me stressed just thinking about it. It gives me permission to give him schitt for an entire week, or visa versa.

 

[Shortschaf]

People spend too much time crunching numbers and not enough time hunting.

seeking understanding of ballistics is a good thing, and many wannabe long range hunters don't do it or have it