Am I messing up?

[myhuntingjournal]

I live in Montana and have been a 30-06 and 280 hunter for a while. I'm building a new rifle based off what I've learned, and I'm planning it to be an 18 inch 25 creed. At my density altitude it seems that a 134 eldm should stay above 2k fps close to 650 yards. Based on what I've heard and read from rokslide and s2h this seems adequate.

I still can't help but feel like I'll be hesitant when I see a bull elk at 350 with such a noticeably smaller cartridge than what I'm used to. I'm sure after a few dead critters I'll build up the confidence, but I'm looking for more input to settle my mind on it.

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[Jake Larsen]

The only thing I’d do is go smaller . I’m in the same state. 6 Creed is killing elk, bears, deer, and any other 4 legged critter that around here. All about bullet selection. A 16.5” with the right bullets are at 1800 fps well over 600 yards. Go read the 6mm Heavy Sierra TMK thread. Those 116s are absolutely lethal. I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to use those for a bison or moose even. For that matter, read up on the .223 thread. 77 TMKs have been used to effectively kill just about anything that moves.


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[myhuntingjournal]

The only thing I’d do is go smaller . I’m in the same state. 6 Creed is killing elk, bears, deer, and any other 4 legged critter that around here. All about bullet selection. A 16.5” with the right bullets are at 1800 fps well over 600 yards. Go read the 6mm Heavy Sierra TMK thread. Those 116s are absolutely lethal. I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to use those for a bison or moose even. For that matter, read up on the .223 thread. 77 TMKs have been used to effectively kill just about anything that moves.


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I've read the 223 thread a lot. That was the genesis for my 25 creed build, and decision to move away from the 30-06 family

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[Jake Larsen]

I've read the 223 thread a lot. That was the genesis for my 25 creed build, and decision to move away from the 30-06 family

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.25 creed is a good choice too, but has some disadvantages IMO. Way fewer good bullets and off the shelf ammo selection. The heavy for caliber 6mms are getting close to the same weight as the .25, and with significantly better ballistics. Also, you can go to a 16.5” barrel and still easily have a 600 yard gun with a bunch of different bullets/loads.

Sierra Heavy TMK 6MM Testing
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...-Testing.431797/&share_type=t&link_source=app


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[longrangelead]

You'll be more than ok. i want to try the 25/134 in the near future just to do it.

seeing the 116 TMK performance, I'm probably going to be shooting 243/116's and 6x45/107's this year.

I'm planning on killing a spring bear with the 6x45 this year.

 

[jonnyviceroy]

@Jake Larsen nailed it here. You should be worried about feeling hesitant either we all feel that way anytime we venture toward anything new and abandoned something we’ve been familiar with.

As long as you’re a hand loader the 25 creed will serve you well. If you’re factory loads only I’d consider the 6 or 6.5. While there are not as many .25 bullet options there are some really good ones. I like Berger EH 133s and find it to be the most consistent but am really looking forward to the new TMK as well. I fully understand and acknowledge the Bergers may have more narrow wound channels but am okay with that if I do drift out of that pocket and touch a shoulder. I don’t see the same devastation I see with TMKs. The TMKs are kinda mind blowing what they are capable of.

 

[myhuntingjournal]

I think I'm sticking with the 25 because the 134 eldm is a solid looking chimney and I'm itching to try them. Also the new sierra coming out have piqued my interest.

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[wmr89]

There is nothing wrong about being hesitant with the smaller cartridges. All it means is that you care about being an ethical hunter. Even if what you are reading makes logical sense, there is nothing wrong with verifying it on your own before committing fully.

I took my first big game animal with a .223 this year. A pronghorn doe at 200 yards. I plan on working my way up and seeing how it does on mule deer and then a cow elk before I jump to bull elk. I understand and believe it intellectually, but I have a ways to go before I start flinging .223 at a bull elk.

Living in Montana, you could work your way through a number of smaller species fairly quickly and that will give you confidence in your set up and what it does.

 

[mtnbound]

I live in Montana and have been a 30-06 and 280 hunter for a while. I'm building a new rifle based off what I've learned, and I'm planning it to be an 18 inch 25 creed. At my density altitude it seems that a 134 eldm should stay above 2k fps close to 650 yards. Based on what I've heard and read from rokslide and s2h this seems adequate.

I still can't help but feel like I'll be hesitant when I see a bull elk at 350 with such a noticeably smaller cartridge than what I'm used to. I'm sure after a few dead critters I'll build up the confidence, but I'm looking for more input to settle my mind on it.

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You will be fine with the 25CM. Get it built, get ammo for it and go shoot it. Build confidence in being able to put the bullet in the right spot over and over. If you put the bullet in the right spot it will do its job. Don’t overlook the ELDX the M gets more attention but I have liked the performance of the X over the M in my 22CM and 6CM.

 

[mt terry d]

I've read the 223 thread a lot. That was the genesis for my 25 creed build, and decision to move away from the 30-06 family

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I have no idea how after reading that thread and seeing hundreds of examples why anyone would be "hesitant" to use any smaller caliber with a proven bullet.

Practicing (a lot) and learning to spot your shots is a real thing for hunting in the west.

 

[cbuck516]

There are still plenty of people out there that think 300WM is too small for elk. I used to listen to those people, but have slowly been going smaller and slower to see at what point I notice a decrease in lethality. I've now shot elk with bullets from 0.257"-0.308" diameter, weights from 107-199gr, and distance from 100-440y. I haven't seen any decrease it lethality with the smaller bullets and the smallest bullets have actually been the quickest kills and least number of steps taken will my small data set.

I built an 18" 1:7 25CM last year and shot a cow elk with it. One shot one kill, took maybe two steps before toppling over, but that was with a Hammer 107HBC. I only shoot the 130s at steel and predators.

Being cautiously optimistic is reasonable when some of what is being talked about seems so counterintuitive based on historical wisdom. You can't disagree that a larger bullet will on average create a larger hole, but I have yet to find it to be true that a larger bullet creates a faster kill.

Once you get your 18" 25CM and see how shootable it is and how boringly consistent these 130-class 25's are I think you will start to build your confidence. You will also have the ability to use SRP brass which really opens up your options during a component shortage.

I ended up ordering a 26" 1:7 25CM later last year so now I have a dedicated 25CM heavy rifle for PRS matches and one that is dedicated for hunting.

 

[BuckSmasher]

I live in Montana and have been a 30-06 and 280 hunter for a while. I'm building a new rifle based off what I've learned, and I'm planning it to be an 18 inch 25 creed. At my density altitude it seems that a 134 eldm should stay above 2k fps close to 650 yards. Based on what I've heard and read from rokslide and s2h this seems adequate.

I still can't help but feel like I'll be hesitant when I see a bull elk at 350 with such a noticeably smaller cartridge than what I'm used to. I'm sure after a few dead critters I'll build up the confidence, but I'm looking for more input to settle my mind on it.

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Yes you are. This forum has lost its mind with the small caliber nonsense. You don't need a 50 bmg, and yes big magnums don't make up for bad shot placement but big bullets do more damage than small ones. Also frangible bullets do not penetrate very well. Yes I am aware of the 223 thread. Somebody always comes along and says they have a new better way of doing things and gain acolytes. Best thing is to be proficient with the most powerful rifle you can (withing reason) and shoot bullets that stay together and exit.

 

[Maverick1]

@myhuntingjournal : the difference in diameter is 0.027" and 0.051".

 

[cbuck516]

.25 creed is a good choice too, but has some disadvantages IMO. Way fewer good bullets and off the shelf ammo selection. The heavy for caliber 6mms are getting close to the same weight as the .25, and with significantly better ballistics. Also, you can go to a 16.5” barrel and still easily have a 600 yard gun with a bunch of different bullets/loads.

Sierra Heavy TMK 6MM Testing
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=45046&share_tid=431797&url=https://www.rokslide.com/forums/index.php?threads/Sierra-Heavy-TMK-6MM-Testing.431797/&share_type=t&link_source=app


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What 6mm bullets are you referring to that have better ballistics than the 25 cal options? There is a pretty noticeable jump in maximum BC for the 25 cal offerings over the 6mm offerings I would be willing to consider, but maybe I’m overlooking something.
Or maybe you are just referring to performance of factory ammo?

 

[myhuntingjournal]

Best thing is to be proficient with the most powerful rifle you can (withing reason) and shoot bullets that stay together and exit.

So my question is what do you define as being able to shoot well or be proficient? I regularly ring steel at 800 first shot with my 3006, but I all because this year I shot a buck at 330 and it wasn't a perfect shot (single lung) but he stayed for another shot but I missed my chance because recoil jumped the gun off my rest so I had to walk up and finish it up close after 15 ish min. I'm confident with my 6.5creed I have I would've seen him after the first shot.

I only know he stayed because my hunting buddy watched him stand there for 30sec before walking behind some juniper

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[Jake Larsen]

What 6mm bullets are you referring to that have better ballistics than the 25 cal options? There is a pretty noticeable jump in maximum BC for the 25 cal offerings over the 6mm offerings I would be willing to consider, but maybe I’m overlooking something.
Or maybe you are just referring to performance of factory ammo?

Certainly better in factory offerings for the 6.

It’s looking up for the .25 with the new TMKs coming. Right now the 134s are probably the best high BC option, and would be a great choice.

For the 6mm, The 116/107/95 TMKs, 115 NR DTACS, the 108/109s, 105 BTHP, 95 NBT…There’s just more proven killing bullets currently, especially when analyzed through the lens of a 16.5” barrel, with 1800fps @ 600+ yards. When I said “ballistics” I wasn’t just talking about BC numbers, but also what speeds you can expect to see with each bullet. Even the 95-100gr class bullets for the 6Creed will get you there out of a shorty barrel.

There’s no wrong answer here IMO. Just preferences. For a shorty, supressed, 600+ yard gun, the 6Creed has more options at this point in time. Also, the way I see it, there’s no downside. Less recoil, and with the TMKs on the table, a wide range of killing wound channels (bullets) available.

For that matter, a 100gr Nosler Partition is a 550 yard gun at my average DA out of a 16.5” barrel lol


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[streamerfish]

Personally, I would just be spending alot of time practicing so "I" can do my part at 350 yards. Your clearly and objectively fine with your caliber and bullet choice.

Also nothing wrong with mentally being a bit nervous trying things we've never done before. I think that's pretty natural and just shows you take doing your part seriously.

 

[cbuck516]

So my question is what do you define as being able to shoot well or be proficient? I regularly ring steel at 800 first shot with my 3006, but I all because this year I shot a buck at 330 and it wasn't a perfect shot (single lung) but he stayed for another shot but I missed my chance because recoil jumped the gun off my rest so I had to walk up and finish it up close after 15 ish min. I'm confident with my 6.5creed I have I would've seen him after the first shot.

I only know he stayed because my hunting buddy watched him stand there for 30sec before walking behind some juniper

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I guess I would focus on why the first shot wasn't perfect. What factors made that bullet land in a spot that was not centered in the vital? Was it a poor rest? Trigger slap? Wind? Bad Range? Wrong Dope? Rifle lost zero due to a hard fall? etc, etc...

Instead of focusing on how to get a better follow up shot, why not focus on how to get a better first round shot while keeping muzzle control as a secondary goal? I do believe a lower recoiling rifle platform will address both of those concerns for you.

My second question is, why did a 308 bullet that got one lung not kill the animal more quickly? Having more gun is supposed to provide extra margin of lethality when shots aren't ideal so why did this animal take so long to expire? This is the exact type of situation that people use to justify going bigger in power or bullet diameter, but your example doesn't (and many others) don't support the "more gun" philosophy. The exact bullet you were using certainly has a lot to do with your result as well, but your first issue is you didn't hit where you should have. I'm not trying to beat you up, but I am trying to support your desire to build a new gun

 

[BuckSmasher]

So my question is what do you define as being able to shoot well or be proficient? I regularly ring steel at 800 first shot with my 3006, but I all because this year I shot a buck at 330 and it wasn't a perfect shot (single lung) but he stayed for another shot but I missed my chance because recoil jumped the gun off my rest so I had to walk up and finish it up close after 15 ish min. I'm confident with my 6.5creed I have I would've seen him after the first shot.

I only know he stayed because my hunting buddy watched him stand there for 30sec before walking behind some juniper

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If you are unhappy with one shot performance with 30-06 a 6.5 Creed won't make you happy. FWIW I hunt mostly with a 30-06 and think it is the best balance out there.

I went throught similar evolution when I lived in Texas and hog hunted 365. I was unhappy with 223, went 308 ar10 route, didn't like losing sight picture and didn't get as many doubles and triples and finally settled onto 6.5 Grendel. There is a HUGE difference between a 150# east Texas pig and a 800# bull elk. Also, who is trying to get doubles and triples on elk? I never had a problem on a single pig finding it again after AR10. With the '10 had a lot quicker 1 shot kills also. I shot my bull a couple of times this year at 404 yards, I didn't have any problem finding him after a shot.

 

[cbuck516]

Certainly better in factory offerings for the 6.

It’s looking up for the .25 with the new TMKs coming. Right now the 134s are probably the best high BC option, and would be a great choice.

For the 6mm, The 116/107/95 TMKs, 115 NR DTACS, the 108/109s, 105 BTHP, 95 NBT…There’s just more proven killing bullets currently, especially when analyzed through the lens of a 16.5” barrel, with 1800fps @ 600+ yards. When I said “ballistics” I wasn’t just talking about BC numbers, but also what speeds you can expect to see with each bullet. Even the 95-100gr class bullets for the 6Creed will get you there out of a shorty barrel.

There’s no wrong answer here IMO. Just preferences. For a shorty, supressed, 600+ yard gun, the 6Creed has more options at this point in time. Also, the way I see it, there’s no downside. Less recoil, and with the TMKs on the table, a wide range of killing wound channels (bullets) available.

For that matter, a 100gr Nosler Partition is a 550 yard gun at my average DA out of a 16.5” barrel lol


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Thanks for clarifying. I only shoot monos at things that go in the freezer so I'm looking at bullet options pretty differently than you are.

What sort of MV are you getting with a 16.5" 6CM and the 110gr class bullets? I'm at 2970fps in my 18" 25CM with the 107HBC which is way faster than my simulation for the 6CM and 109 indicated at 16.5". It didn't look like you would be able to get much higher than 2700fps before hitting pressure with the variables I was using.