Alpine pack goats

[jlw0142]

Would like the opinion of someone who knows a lot about pack goats. I am planning to get some pack goats in the (somewhat) near future. Was really just thinking about getting 4 Alpines. I don’t want a large herd and will often be hunting solo, so would just like 4-6 goats that can haul about 50 lbs each. Should I diversify, or can I just stick with alpines? I think oberhalsi are too small for my liking. What about hybrids?


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[elkhunter505]

Not sure if you’re planning on using them in bighorn or mountain goat territory, but if so, please reconsider another type of stock due to the disease risk.

 

[Bama67]

Alpines are the base stock for most people. I had some, they are amazing animals but I found Alpines more aggressive than others so they can sometimes beat up on one another.
Most packgoat breeders are doing mixed breeds now, but the base stock will be Alpine. But they toss in some Saanen, Sables, even some Boer and Kiko in some.

The North American Packgoat Association page on Facebook is your best bet for good info.

 

[Bama67]

The disease thing has been pretty much debunked.

 

[jlw0142]

The disease thing has been pretty much debunked.

That’s what I thought…but I was just going to let it go because it comes up on literally every thread. Thanks for reinforcing.


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[elkhunter505]

The disease thing has been pretty much debunked.

Can someone send me where this occurred because I work on bighorn sheep and I can tell you that goats have and will continue to kill sheep through disease spread. Even wild sheep foundation is vehemently trying to get people to think twice about having goats and sheep near bighorn.

https://www.wildsheepfoundation.org/cache/DOC48_2018-10-25revisedBHSSmallHerdBrochure.pdf?20181026105034

 

[jlw0142]

Can someone send me where this occurred because I work on bighorn sheep and I can tell you that goats have and will continue to kill sheep through disease spread. Even wild sheep foundation is vehemently trying to get people to think twice about having goats and sheep near bighorn.

https://www.wildsheepfoundation.org/cache/DOC48_2018-10-25revisedBHSSmallHerdBrochure.pdf?20181026105034

Please don’t get combative at me because I’m just telling you what I read, and I’m very new to goats. I was researching to see if there really was an issue of disease transmission, because if so I likely wouldn’t get them. I read about the 2016 Goat Movi study by Dr. Highland, where they penned domestic goats with bighorns for a period of time, and none of the bighorns got sick. But also, how would pack goats pose a threat, when they are always nearby their human and never around bighorns? Maybe if they were to get loose, but that is preventable and that hypothetical ideology could go for almost anything. Do you see affirmative disease transmission by domestic goats on a regular basis?


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[elkhunter505]

Sorry, I don't want to be combative. Apologies it it came off that way. I have a vested interest in keeping bighorn alive and on the mountain. That being said, on average strains of M. ovi from domestic goat clades are less likely to kill bighorn than those from domestic sheep. There are some studies that do talk about sub-lethal or minorly lethal pneumonia being induced by domestic goat exposure (Besser et al. 2017, Johnson et al. 2022); however, there are newer studies that show in similar captive settings that exposure to domestic goat strains of M. ovi do kill sheep (https://www.proquest.com/docview/3149937216?fromopenview=true&pq-origsite=gscholar&sourcetype=Dissertations & Theses). This thesis shows that 3 out of 4 bighorn sheep that were inoculated with goat strains of pneumonia died following inoculation.




The problem is that bighorn that are completely naive to M. ovi are at significant risk of pneumonia from domestic goats, but also there is no cross-strain immunity to M. ovi. Basically, bighorn can increase their immunity to a specific strain, but that immunity does not seem to translate to different strains. In that case, even if the pneumonia from an original goat introduction occurs and is fought off by the animal, a different strain from a different set of goats could but may not kill them given that their lungs have likely already sustained damage. We do see pneumonia infections that have originated from domestic goats relatively frequently but it is less frequent that they're implicated in lethal pneumonia. I know of at least one recent epizootic where a domestic goat was found in the sheep herd about one month prior to the deaths occurring. It is possible it came from somewhere else, but I am waiting to hear about the strain typing results. That goat was sampled and all the dead bighorn were sampled so they should be able to link it if that is the true infection source.

Sorry if my initial message came off combative. That is not how I am trying to go about these things. I don't want to rain on people's parades when goats are likely the most feasible pack animal for many people, but it is something that we all have to think about when we are trying to leave minimal impact on the landscape.

 

[elkhunter505]

Please don’t get combative at me because I’m just telling you what I read, and I’m very new to goats. I was researching to see if there really was an issue of disease transmission, because if so I likely wouldn’t get them. I read about the 2016 Goat Movi study by Dr. Highland, where they penned domestic goats with bighorns for a period of time, and none of the bighorns got sick. But also, how would pack goats pose a threat, when they are always nearby their human and never around bighorns? Maybe if they were to get loose, but that is preventable and that hypothetical ideology could go for almost anything. Do you see affirmative disease transmission by domestic goats on a regular basis?


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In your sense, if the goats are 100% segregated from the bighorn sheep, it is unlikely that it poses a disease risk because it practically requires nose-to-nose contact. However, on the off chance of goats becoming separated from their owners and finding sheep to hang out with, it is a significant concern for our managers. I believe we are all supportive of pack goats in areas where sheep are not present, but in the places were they are, it definitely concerns us.

Edit to add: it's also possible that bighorn see goats and go to them rather than the opposite. Don't want to put it solely on the goat owners.

 

[jlw0142]

Sorry, I don't want to be combative. Apologies it it came off that way. I have a vested interest in keeping bighorn alive and on the mountain. That being said, on average strains of M. ovi from domestic goat clades are less likely to kill bighorn than those from domestic sheep. There are some studies that do talk about sub-lethal or minorly lethal pneumonia being induced by domestic goat exposure (Besser et al. 2017, Johnson et al. 2022); however, there are newer studies that show in similar captive settings that exposure to domestic goat strains of M. ovi do kill sheep (https://www.proquest.com/docview/3149937216?fromopenview=true&pq-origsite=gscholar&sourcetype=Dissertations & Theses). This thesis shows that 3 out of 4 bighorn sheep that were inoculated with goat strains of pneumonia died following inoculation.

View attachment 856637


The problem is that bighorn that are completely naive to M. ovi are at significant risk of pneumonia from domestic goats, but also there is no cross-strain immunity to M. ovi. Basically, bighorn can increase their immunity to a specific strain, but that immunity does not seem to translate to different strains. In that case, even if the pneumonia from an original goat introduction occurs and is fought off by the animal, a different strain from a different set of goats could but may not kill them given that their lungs have likely already sustained damage. We do see pneumonia infections that have originated from domestic goats relatively frequently but it is less frequent that they're implicated in lethal pneumonia. I know of at least one recent epizootic where a domestic goat was found in the sheep herd about one month prior to the deaths occurring. It is possible it came from somewhere else, but I am waiting to hear about the strain typing results. That goat was sampled and all the dead bighorn were sampled so they should be able to link it if that is the true infection source.

Sorry if my initial message came off combative. That is not how I am trying to go about these things. I don't want to rain on people's parades when goats are likely the most feasible pack animal for many people, but it is something that we all have to think about when we are trying to leave minimal impact on the landscape.

Nah man, you’re all good. I didn’t mean that I took your statements as combative, I was just prefacing my statements in disagreement with you because I don’t know what I’m talking about and genuinely wanted your take on the matter, not to start an argument. That is good info, I appreciate it! I understand your perspective, and thankfully I likely won’t ever be hunting in bighorn territory so I should be alright. I live a long way from the elk woods, so goats are by far the most practical for me, but I want sheep conservation as much as the next guy so I will keep em out of sheep habitat. Cheers!


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[elkhunter505]

Nah man, you’re all good. I didn’t mean that I took your statements as combative, I was just prefacing my statements in disagreement with you because I don’t know what I’m talking about and genuinely wanted your take on the matter, not to start an argument. That is good info, I appreciate it! I understand your perspective, and thankfully I likely won’t ever be hunting in bighorn territory so I should be alright. I live a long way from the elk woods, so goats are by far the most practical for me, but I want sheep conservation as much as the next guy so I will keep em out of sheep habitat. Cheers!


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Awesome, that’s all we can hope for! Them little goats are cooler than hell but I just spend too much time around sheep to have them myself. Hope they work out for ya!

 

[Gobbler36]

Alpines are the base stock for most people. I had some, they are amazing animals but I found Alpines more aggressive than others so they can sometimes beat up on one another.
Most packgoat breeders are doing mixed breeds now, but the base stock will be Alpine. But they toss in some Saanen, Sables, even some Boer and Kiko in some.

The North American Packgoat Association page on Facebook is your best bet for good info.

I had some for a bit, we had ober/ lamancha and they were awesome animals. Awesome with my family and awesome packers!

 

[Bachto]

Would like the opinion of someone who knows a lot about pack goats. I am planning to get some pack goats in the (somewhat) near future. Was really just thinking about getting 4 Alpines. I don’t want a large herd and will often be hunting solo, so would just like 4-6 goats that can haul about 50 lbs each. Should I diversify, or can I just stick with alpines? I think oberhalsi are too small for my liking. What about hybrids?


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I would look into a lamancha alpine hybrid. I know obers are small but my obers are FAR more agile and have way more heart when packing, they just don’t quit. Feel free to reach out. I also have an ongoing thread in the pack stock thread about my experience the last couple years with my goats.

 

[jlw0142]

I would look into a lamancha alpine hybrid. I know obers are small but my obers are FAR more agile and have way more heart when packing, they just don’t quit. Feel free to reach out. I also have an ongoing thread in the pack stock thread about my experience the last couple years with my goats.

Sounds great, will do! I have heard that about obers. Maybe can run a mixed bag with at least an ober or two and then a couple alpines or alpine hybrids. I’m definitely going to look at that thread, and I will likely reach out when I get ready to buy some. Sadly can’t get any at this very moment due to land availability, but I am moving in the (somewhat) near future.


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[Bachto]

Sounds great, will do! I have heard that about obers. Maybe can run a mixed bag with at least an ober or two and then a couple alpines or alpine hybrids. I’m definitely going to look at that thread, and I will likely reach out when I get ready to buy some. Sadly can’t get any at this very moment due to land availability, but I am moving in the (somewhat) near future.


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I have 2 ober mixes, a lamancha mix and 2 full alpines. My alpines I have not found are aggressive at all. Quite the opposite.

 

[jlw0142]

I have 2 ober mixes, a lamancha mix and 2 full alpines. My alpines I have not found are aggressive at all. Quite the opposite.

Oh wow, that’s awesome. Yeah that’s the only downfall I have heard of Alpines, it’s good to hear they aren’t all like that


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[Legend]

Not sure if you’re planning on using them in bighorn or mountain goat territory, but if so, please reconsider another type of stock due to the disease risk.

The research on this topic is heavily skewed. The transfer to bighorn sheep was only documented when they were in the same coral....for a very long time. It isn't a much of a concern in my opinion.

Edit: after reading further it sounds like you are fairly educated on the subject.

I get a little tired of this topic becuase it seems like most people haven't bothered to read about it. There certainly is a chance for M.ovi to transfer from pack goat to bighorn. In order for it to happen you need 2 things:

1) a goat that has M.ovi. If your goat is sick you would leave them home. I suppose there is a chance they have M.ovi and are asymptomatic but it is the coughing and sneezing that spreads the disease. Heck if people wanted we could have regular M.ovi tests on the goat herd. Then there would be zero chance.

2) M.ovi is spread by droplets in the air....sneezing, coughing, nose to nose contact. So the two animals would have to be in very close contact. And likely for a long time. If you have ever seen 2 animals that have never met before interact you know it is unlikely they run up to eachother and start snuggling.

I honestly think most of the hate for packgoats comes from the fear of change ( a new pack animal on the trail ). And then they point to M.ovi without even a baseline understanding.

Oh and Alpine are a great breed.

 

[elkhunter505]

1) a goat that has M.ovi. If your goat is sick you would leave them home. I suppose there is a chance they have M.ovi and are asymptomatic but it is the coughing and sneezing that spreads the disease. Heck if people wanted we could have regular M.ovi tests on the goat herd. Then there would be zero chance.

2) M.ovi is spread by droplets in the air....sneezing, coughing, nose to nose contact. So the two animals would have to be in very close contact. And likely for a long time. If you have ever seen 2 animals that have never met before interact you know it is unlikely they run up to eachother and start snuggling.

There is a high probability of asymptomatic carriage in domestics which is what makes M. Ovi so difficult to manage. Most of the time owners don’t even know that their animals have it because there is very little impact the majority of the time. I wish we had a rapid test version that was accurate enough to give out tests. It would make the test and remove efforts much easier and more targeted than they currently are. Unfortunately, I just don’t think we are there yet. If you go to movifree.org there is a full called Transmission which is really informative even if it is not fully accurate. They show a treatment there but it’s far from perfect and definitely is not the most enjoyable for the animals to get a nasal wash 5 days in a row.

They definitely need to be in close contact but it can spread fairly easily through nose to nose contact even without sneezing. Agreed that the amount of time that the commingling occurs does drastically increase the probability of a transmission event. It’s so dynamic which makes it such a difficult system to manage, but if we can spend the time to educate the public on the risk, I think we can make major differences. WSF and managers have been focused on reactive management for a long time, but in recent times, I have seen efforts from WSF to be at county fairs and other places to educate livestock owners particularly the hobby farm owners. Additionally, there is a project at Montana State right now that is looking at collared domestics and collared bighorn to predict commingling events and manage for them. I think that is a step in the positive direction because it will be much easier to manage on the domestic side than the wild side in my opinion. If we could get that management nailed, then we could look at removing chronic carriers in wild herds knowing that the herd is not going to be subject to another spillover event.

 

[elkhunter505]

And yeah I am disgustingly educated on this because I am currently studying for my comprehensive exams. If you’d have caught me 1 year ago, I would have been wildly useless in this conversation. I definitely don’t expect anyone outside of academics to have that level of knowledge on the topic and I think that it’s our job as managers and academics to help make the research we do more accessible to the public. There’s obviously been a lot of distrust sewn around science in the past decade and I hope to be one of the people that can help build that credibility and trust back for the agencies and public. Both the agencies and the public are more effective and more cohesive when the public trusts us and believes in what we are doing. Hopefully I can help play a part in that.