AK Sheep, Population Observations

[Sourdough]

As with many population problems, it seems like sheep face the same "deaths of a thousand cuts" scenario. There is not one problem that if corrected would send populations bouncing back and no silver bullet to help accomplish that.

Yet there "IS" one thing over which humans have the power to change, which may not be a silver bullet, but at least we have pretty much "full" control of implementing.

Close all sheep hunting till fall of 2025. Then open with much shorter seasons, and only in areas strong enough to support sport hunting.

 

[AlaskaMark]

Broken record ...here's where we are at, in reality:

1) There are no existing avenues to conduct predator control to help sheep populations
2) We can't control the weather, avalanches, drownings etc

There is one thing that we do have the means to control, and that is hunters.

Alaska is Alaska. It's not B.C., NWT or the Yukon. We are unique in how we manage our sheep, our guides, and sheep hunting opportunities. So with all due respect, any comparisons to Canada are meaningless.

And I recommend resorting to facts when certain things come up, like ADFG funding. Anyone can look at the Dept's budget online: https://omb.alaska.gov/html/budget-report/department-table.html?dept=Fish&fy=20&type=Enacted

The Dept has adequate funding and indeed will get plenty of P-R funds with the Biden administration. Part of my job entails keeping track of ADFG funding and when possible helping DWC to secure necessary funding. Last session RHAK and the other orgs helped get SB 22 passed, to continue the IM hunting license surcharge fee that was set to be repealed.

Some may not be aware, but with very few exceptions (like the IM hunting license surcharge above), monies that go to F&G cannot be dedicated to specific projects or species; with wildlife it all goes into the DWC general fund. Sheep population surveys (density estimates) are difficult to do, and all we have done and continue to do are trend counts in certain units. We also have some ongoing sheep research projects, like what Dr Lohuis is doing. It isn't that there is no money for sheep surveys/research. It's that the Dept is committed still to the notion that the FC management regime is sustainable, hence no need to conduct more extensive sheep density estimates. All aerial surveys require good flying weather, and at times weather prevents surveys, not lack of funding toward it.

The F&G Advisory committees (I'm vice-chair of the Fairbanks AC) also keep track of these issues, among many others. Would be great to see some of you more involved with ACs, with the knowledge you have. Yes, it can be time consuming, we're all busy with life and work and family, but it sure beats the internet for actually influencing things.

 

[AlaskaMark]

SLDMTN, I didn't mean to infer we should not look at how CA manages their sheep, and learn what we can from that. Or incorporate things here that work there. Surely we could. But we don't. And we haven't. Unlike CA, we have no limits in many cases on # of sheep hunters or guides. That's the only thing we can easily change that will make a difference right off and decrease the human mortality.

As for 13D, I guess my point is; if we don't do something now, the areas with no limits will all end up like TMA, DCUA, Chugach, and they won't recover and ever be gen sheep hunting again. How many times has everyone heard, "It's all gonna go draw for all down the line"? That has always seemed to me more of a "get 'em while we still can" sort of mentality, "there's nothing we can do to stop it."

We can at minimum do something to stave off that happening to residents, by limiting the # of nonresident sheep hunters now on all state lands that aren't already on draw. It's the right thing to do as a start. It's what CA does on their lands, along with limiting # of guides.

 

[Thunder]

SLDMTN, I didn't mean to infer we should not look at how CA manages their sheep, and learn what we can from that. Or incorporate things here that work there. Surely we could. But we don't. And we haven't. Unlike CA, we have no limits in many cases on # of sheep hunters or guides. That's the only thing we can easily change that will make a difference right off and decrease the human mortality.

As for 13D, I guess my point is; if we don't do something now, the areas with no limits will all end up like TMA, DCUA, Chugach, and they won't recover and ever be gen sheep hunting again. How many times has everyone heard, "It's all gonna go draw for all down the line"? That has always seemed to me more of a "get 'em while we still can" sort of mentality, "there's nothing we can do to stop it."

We can at minimum do something to stave off that happening to residents, by limiting the # of nonresident sheep hunters now on all state lands that aren't already on draw. It's the right thing to do as a start. It's what CA does on their lands, along with limiting # of guides.

What’s RHAKs current stance on aerial spotting?

 

[AlaskaMark]

What’s RHAKs current stance on aerial spotting?

Sigh, c'mon.

 

[Thunder]

Sigh, c'mon.

And there you have it boys.

 

[JohnB]

Thanks all for the informative discussion. As someone who knows diddly about sheep and will likely never hunt one it's interesting to read about.

 

[Fullcry]

New to this site.
But many years of sheep steps for me too.
I really like the trade of info.
Kinda partial to the old school stuff but the young guys have some good points too.
I just can’t stand the insults,that’s were a guys good points go out the window.And folks lose credibility.
Just because 2 people don’t agree doesn’t
Mean someone automatically is a Liar.
Just my thoughts.

 

[Thunder]

New to this site.
But many years of sheep steps for me too.
I really like the trade of info.
Kinda partial to the old school stuff but the young guys have some good points too.
I just can’t stand the insults,that’s were a guys good points go out the window.And folks lose credibility.
Just because 2 people don’t agree doesn’t
Mean someone automatically is a Liar.
Just my thoughts.

If you spread misinformation prepare to be called out by someone. Take it like a man or get your feelings hurt. It doesn’t matter.

Sheep hunters are the fly fishermen of the hunting world.

 

[kaboku68]

Most of us get along very well. But there are different factions. We are all trying to get our cake and eat it too. Each generation wishes to live in the generation in the past. We are way more comfortable than what the hunters of the past had to endure but many of them had three weeks to get it done and a lot less competition in a much bigger area for a better resource. It is harder right now for a sheep hunter than any time in the past. There are a huge number of factors involved. I can tell you this taking your first ram is truly one of the greatest highlights in your life if you truly work for it. I ask a question of people that often takes them aback when they shoot their first sheep. Did you bawl like a baby? I know that I did. Sheep are truly amazing creatures and hunting them is perhaps the best time that one has on earth.

When I was growing up we used to go to Jay Seskies homestead cabin and go around Suzy's trail to the rock off of Salmon point. We could fish there till we got 200 reds and Kings that were enough for our family to eat. We largely had the place to ourselves. When my sister and I were in teacher training 28 years ago my sister inadvertently shared the location with one of our classmates. We didn't know at the time that his wife was a writer for the Anchorage Times. She went with him and they took 15 kings that were all large from the king hole. It took them two days to pack them out. The woman returned our generosity by writing a story about their trip and Salmon Point has never been the same since. Many times there would be 20-30 people lined up down there. It never was the same. Right now I betcha 80% of the Alaskans on here know where Salmon Point is and have at least walked down to it. The dangers of sheep hunting is that the knowledge that we know can almost completely destroy a resource or change it to the extent that it will never be the same again.

I used to help many people with ideas of where to go sheep hunting and some would score and some wouldn't ever hunt sheep again. I am know in a place that I worry less about the continuation of sheep hunters and now worry about the possibilities of hunting sheep without a draw. I have worked hard for a long time and want to go on long hunts. It is just my luck to retire and find out the whole state has gone draw. But I am more worried about the sustainability of the sheep populations. I love watching the lambs learning to run cliffs in the spring. Ewes are just weird creatures. Rams are smart suckers. Big rams are really smart suckers. Oh to become a mountain creature. It is the highlight of a hunters life to chase after them in their favored terrain.

My uncle was a guidance counselor in Valdez. He loved to hunt moose. When he was young his family had to eat old mutton from sheep that were about done. He went in up Manker Creek and had three monster rams come up to his track rig and just look it over. I asked him why he didn't pop one of them(this is when it was just an open harvest ticket). He said I hated that old mutton he had to eat as a kid and promised himself that he would never be forced to eat an old sheep when he grew up. I just shook my head. He really loved sheep meat after I gave him some. Just makes people think about perspectives.

I would share a campfire with anybody on here and help people in the best way that I can. But sheep knowledge really needs to be earned with boot leather and hard work. People need to find a mentor and start building files and start learning. They best get busy if they want to get it done before it is a statewide draw.

 

[Sourdough]

Manker Creek

"Manker Creek"..........Heaven and Hell.
That should take up three, maybe four chapters, in a book that will never be written.

 

[ColeyG]

One of my sheep hunting partners made a comment recently that hit me like a hammer on the head. He said that the most challenging part of most hunts these days is out hunting the competition, not out smarting the animal.

In a lot of ways I agree, though certainly there are still places where you get away from the "crowds" in AK, that typically takes more time, effort, and logistics that most are willing to invest. Even then, it only takes one super cub with two dudes in it to really change your wilderness experience.

 

[Thunder]

One of my sheep hunting partners made a comment recently that hit me like a hammer on the head. He said that the most challenging part of most hunts these days is out hunting the competition, not out smarting the animal.

In a lot of ways I agree, though certainly there are still places where you get away from the "crowds" in AK, that typically takes more time, effort, and logistics that most are willing to invest. Even then, it only takes one super cub with two dudes in it to really change your wilderness experience.

Interesting perspective.

 

[Sourdough]

not out smarting the animal.

See that is "part" of what is removed from "past" hunting experience. Today the "archer" still must outsmart the animal with skill. Zero or very-very little "hunting" skill in shooting and animal at 633 yards. It is no longer hunting (in the classic concept). It is scouting where is the "best" place for everyone to hunt, "using" the internet. So it would be reasonable that everyone is crowding the same location.

Fortunately there is a solution.

 

[Sourdough]

that the most challenging part of most hunts these days is out hunting the competition, not out smarting the animal.

Which could explain (in part) why it is so popular to dry-gulch the "single easiest and stupidest animal in Alaska, after paying someone else to scout for you, find the herd for you, and transport you next to the herd. That is "SHOOTING SKILL ONLY", same as rifle range target shooting. All of the "actual hunting" parts of classic hunting, has been marketed to those seduced into believing they are hunters.

It will get worse.

With Luck an "urgent" effort could be made to salvage "some" of the pride of calling oneself "Hunter".

 

[kaboku68]

I think that there are many parts that make a person a hunter. I have the gear and stuff to do the long range hunting but I really like getting close to the animal. However, to me, that is not the element of what makes a person a hunter(it is an aspect of that). I truly believe that a hunter respects the life of the animal and its contribution to his or her life. I respect the meat. So I use a rifle load and shot placement that kills cleanly with a minimum loss of meat but with enough power so it doesn't run off to where it is lost. I am not tech or gear adverse but the biggest thing to me is the respect to the animal. Maybe my definition is different than most. IDK. I have let full curl sheep and legal moose go. Just didn't feel right. I am more into the stalking and interacting that with the kill counts. I do favor wild meat and believe that the primal connection that we make with animals really is an essential part of being human.

I can tell you that watching all of the 40 mile hunters haul out caribou whole that look like they are starting to sour upsets me. I think that there should be a meat treatment and instruction course mandatory for big game hunting in Alaska but most probably would disagree with this. I have so many wives come in and ask how to process and package meat and then they just buy the biggest LEM meat grinder that they can and grind it up. It is just so tough for me to see. Or to see moose meat on a ribcage or neck that is thrown in the recycling center dumpsters. It just pisses me off. I shouldn't rant. I have lost goats before. But I now really slow down and make sure that recovery is at a slam dunk percentage and I have left goats to their cliffy cliffs since I lost that goat on Barnard. I guess that hunting shouldn't have an almost religious quality to it but I find myself that way about it so I am sorry if this comes across in the wrong way. It is just how I was raised and how I have been taught by the people who have mentored me.

 

[Bambistew]

We can at minimum do something to stave off that happening to residents, by limiting the # of nonresident sheep hunters now on all state lands that aren't already on draw. It's the right thing to do as a start. It's what CA does on their lands, along with limiting # of guides.

What type of limit are you talking?

 

[Fullcry]

I love it!LOL
ALWAYS start with Non -Residents!
Every body in every state says start with that.
Eliminate more competition for you the residents of any state.
Don’t totally agree with the archery line either.
I know too many guys who are shooting 100 plus yards with a bow now.All the new archery equipment isn’t enough.
Now many states are allowing crossbows.
Everyone trying to get an edge on everyone else.
500 yard plus muzzle loaders.Might as well be single shot rifles now.

 

[AlaskaMark]

What type of limit are you talking?

Well, as you know we've tried various proposals to the BOG to see where guides and the board may be inclined to compromise. The proposal linked below (sorry, system changes the link to gobbledegook) is a place to start I think, dealing with 20A and 19C, and asks to put nonres on draw only in both areas with a 50-permit allocation. I have this 2019 data handy for 19C:


So just taking 2019 data, it shows 93 nonres sheep hunters and 90 resident hunters. So 50 permits would be be almost half of that. If we use the same 80% success rate, those 50 nonres hunters would take 40 sheep instead of 75. With less pressure from guided nonres, residents may do better and take more than 35. Guided hunters could also do better. So essentially, if we want to go by harvest, with that proposal the harvest would be about split 50/50 between res and nonres with ~ 75 sheep taken overall instead of 110.

Now that didn't seem unreasonable two years ago, but guides and BOG would have none of it, even though back then guides and others were saying the sheep were way down in 19C.

The entire reason none of these type of proposals have passed is cuz guides argue (rightly) that draw permits don't guarantee clients and it's much harder to run a guide business that way. We get that, always have. We also get that the Dept would lose some hunting license revenue, P-R funds etc, always have. But what is going on is not sustainable, which makes all of that moot if we truly care about sheep conservation AND ensuring at least for now that residents don't end up losing gen sheep hunting opportunity in those areas. Like I said, limit the nonres component first, see how things go. We'll likely submit similar for just 19C next Region III meeting, see where it goes.

FYI, we also have outlined ways for the Dept to increase revenue to offset any losses from proposals like this.

Proposal Link: https://4290fa4a-1f95-42fa-8ca6-85e...d/038ca3_972140eeaa034771b2e659d495c8fcd2.pdf

 

[Thunder]

I love it!LOL
ALWAYS start with Non -Residents!
Every body in every state says start with that.
Eliminate more competition for you the residents of any state.
Don’t totally agree with the archery line either.
I know too many guys who are shooting 100 plus yards with a bow now.All the new archery equipment isn’t enough.
Now many states are allowing crossbows.
Everyone trying to get an edge on everyone else.
500 yard plus muzzle loaders.Might as well be single shot rifles now.

Cool story bro.