AK Sheep, Population Observations

[kaboku68]

1)You got to make sure that we aren't talking about shooting somebody's lost domestic sheep.

2)One of my favorite J.R.R. Tolkien quotes comes out here. Gandalf impersonating William, who is one of the cave trolls says.'The night's gettin' on, and dawn comes early. Let's get on with it!' 'Dawn take you all, and be stone to you! And there they stand to this day, all alone, unless the birds perch on them; for trolls... must be underground before dawn, or they go back to the stuff of the mountains they are made of, and never move again.... 'Excellent!'"

Trolls turn to stone in the light and one day successful Kenai hunts do more than anything I could say. Five years ago, you could, now you can't. It is simple as that.

3) The heavy increase in growth of underbrush in the areas on the South Road System have made one day dingers neigh to impossible. The sheep populations everywhere except in two hard to get to locations in the Eastern part of the state are trash.

4) If you were a sheep guide with the experience that you claim, you would have worked this year. I know a 73 year old and a 52 year old with a trash knee that were called out of retirement because there was an incredible shortage of guides this year. You would have seen what everybody has seen and make a solid statement based on evidence- The sheep herds in Alaska are in trouble. This is not what it was about 8-10 years ago when new to Alaska hunters who were used to hunting in easy to hunt sheep terrain noted that there were less full curl sheep than before and complained to beat hell. Great areas- once in a lifetime areas- produced snake eyes with both time and money.

5) The areas where population densities are high and trophy quality is a little lower are getting hammered. There is one area where several hunters ran into bears that was coming back but it is coming back no longer. A big secret in the sheep hunting community is that there really are no secrets in the sheep hunting community. We are headed to a statewide draw unless enough pressure can be placed to open up predator hunting and to crop those very successful hunting pairs of goldens that are actually getting successful at taking 4-6 yo rams.

 

[ColeyG]

1)You got to make sure that we aren't talking about shooting somebody's lost domestic sheep.

2)One of my favorite J.R.R. Tolkien quotes comes out here. Gandalf impersonating William, who is one of the cave trolls says.'The night's gettin' on, and dawn comes early. Let's get on with it!' 'Dawn take you all, and be stone to you! And there they stand to this day, all alone, unless the birds perch on them; for trolls... must be underground before dawn, or they go back to the stuff of the mountains they are made of, and never move again.... 'Excellent!'"

Trolls turn to stone in the light and one day successful Kenai hunts do more than anything I could say. Five years ago, you could, now you can't. It is simple as that.

3) The heavy increase in growth of underbrush in the areas on the South Road System have made one day dingers neigh to impossible. The sheep populations everywhere except in two hard to get to locations in the Eastern part of the state are trash.

4) If you were a sheep guide with the experience that you claim, you would have worked this year. I know a 73 year old and a 52 year old with a trash knee that were called out of retirement because there was an incredible shortage of guides this year. You would have seen what everybody has seen and make a solid statement based on evidence- The sheep herds in Alaska are in trouble. This is not what it was about 8-10 years ago when new to Alaska hunters who were used to hunting in easy to hunt sheep terrain noted that there were less full curl sheep than before and complained to beat hell. Great areas- once in a lifetime areas- produced snake eyes with both time and money.

5) The areas where population densities are high and trophy quality is a little lower are getting hammered. There is one area where several hunters ran into bears that was coming back but it is coming back no longer. A big secret in the sheep hunting community is that there really are no secrets in the sheep hunting community. We are headed to a statewide draw unless enough pressure can be placed to open up predator hunting and to crop those very successful hunting pairs of goldens that are actually getting successful at taking 4-6 yo rams.

Well said and agreed.

 

[Sourdough]

Trolls turn to stone in the light and one day successful Kenai hunts do more than anything I could say. Five years ago, you could, now you can't. It is simple as that.

Would you bet money. If it is so-so-so simple, you should be willing bet. If it was done both 2 and 4 years ago, those were both less then five years ago.

 

[JLMUELZ]

Seriously I was really hoping to learn something about peoples's experiences and anecdotal observations in the sheep areas that they have hunted THIS year.

This!

 

[Sourdough]

Here is another thing to reflect on. The sheep harvest that are on F&G records, are only the sheep harvests that are on F&G records.

Here is yet, another thing to reflect on. Just because the "Official" harvest records show sheep can from one location........that is likely intentionally flawed information.

 

[Sourdough]

2 people did it once, how many years ago? I'm guessing a couple decades?

No.....in the last four years.

 

[kaboku68]

One of the Best. And I mean the very best sheep hunters in Alaska shot his first sheep(38 incher) road hunting for moose on the way from his homestead to the Chitina Bar. He is about your age. He took a 45 incher last year- it took him 25 days to get it done. Anything is possible. But if you contend that the sheep populations in Alaska are increasing and are not declining, then you must be smoking something other than sockeyes.

I do not bet. I had a very brilliant professor in college tell me that if betting and gambling was such a great deal the casinos in Vegas and Atlantic City would be broke. I am wondering if you know the following names and can explain who they are. Lyman Nichols, Jack Lee, Howard Knutson, Brad Wentling, Bob Tobey, David Harkness, Jerry Jacques, Reb Ferguson, Chuck Wirscheim, Ken Whitten, or Harly McMahon. I will leave it at that.

 

[SLDMTN]

Just getting back around a computer after a very busy August and September. Taking a quick second on my morning coffee break to add my $0.02

My observations from hunting and/or guiding sheep in four different ranges this year:

-Mature ram numbers were down in all four ranges.
-Avalanches were a mortality factor in certain areas.
-There were age gaps in all herds. The youngest and oldest rams weren't around like I'm used to seeing.
-There are still good rams in those four ranges.
-There are still ANCIENT (16/17 year old) rams, even in ranges that have been hit hard. You'll see it soon if you haven't already...
-There was a surplus of predators.
-Most guides accept that something needs to be done.
-The guides that truly care are doing more to help their sheep populations than most residents are. Winter predator control needs to happen. Guides are doing it, why aren't we? Be a sheep hunter for more than just August.
-The guides that truly care are limiting and in some cases, completely stopping their sheep hunts.


My opinions from hunting and/or guiding in four different ranges this year:

-Blanket harvest percentages (non-res took 80% of all harvest) are just blanket percentages. How many is that? 4/5, 40/50, 80/100? How many residents even hunted it? Access is limited and very expensive in those areas. How many residents scouted it before the season? Guides are getting paid a lot of money for a reason, it was scouted, it's been hunted before, they know the routes of traverse, etc etc.
-Non-residents need to carry predator tags and take predators when their guide tells them to. Otherwise they need to be willing to sit on their hands as their guide takes the grizz/wolf/wolverine/coyote. The game surplus of yester-year happened for a reason...
-Completely eliminating non-resident hunters won't make most resident sheep hunters more successful. It will make already successful sheep hunters even more successful. Sorry but that's the truth. Scout, research, scout again. Instead of getting drunk on the 4th maybe use that three day weekend to go look...then have a drink to celebrate!
-Something needs to be done. I don't profess to have the answer but it's likely a combination of limiting non-resident pressure and limiting resident pressure. Both of those actions would have a direct impact on me which I'm willing to accept. I want there to be wild sheep hunting forever.
-All actions taken need to be science based and our state doesn't have the money for it right now. I'd like to see the AK WSF step up and help. It should be about more than a bumper sticker and a banquet.
-Lastly, hunters riding fat bikes into sheep hills dressed head to toe in Kuiu is just a funny thing to witness.

 

[Broomd]

Unfortunately another great thread goes down....Courtesy of Sourdough, aka AKG AGL4now. Seriously I was really hoping to learn something about peoples's experiences and anecdotal observations in the sheep areas that they have hunted THIS year. I don't give a rat's behind about moose corrals. Sourdough....you really ought to write your experiences and knowledge down in a book and self publish like so many other Alaskans do these days. Can you please, quit trolling the forums. I wish I could have lived in the good old days, but that wasn't when you first got here to Alaska that was before Columbus arrived on the continent. In that regards pretty much everyone here is a latecomer; however, since I'm here now I'll have to do the best with what's left and try to leave it a little bit better than I found it.

Agreed.

Hey, I anecdotally shared what my son experienced in August and he's not full of sh t, unlike others.

 

[Sourdough]

But if you contend that the sheep populations in Alaska are increasing and are not declining, then you must be smoking something other than sockeyes.

Show where in this thread I indicated the slightest hint, or stated that the Dall Sheep population is increasing or even stable.
In point of "FACT" I have said zero about population.

 

[Altiholic]

Sheep numbers are way down in my usual spots by my observation…the area I most often hunt (Chugach) was low density to begin with and the last 2 years things are desolate. Similar for the areas in the Wrangells and Alaska Range I’ve looked at or been to in the last 2 years. I’m not just seeing fewer on the ground, I’m seeing fewer from the cub. A partner drew a golden ticket last year and we spent 2 weeks and the best we could drum up was a couple independent 4-5 year olds and a ram that was likely of-age, but not full curl with little mass. This was in a location where we would have been picking through legal full-curl rams the year before, no joke. This year, after scouting, I didn’t hunt sheep. Chugach and Alaska Range are sad, but as others have said there are some pockets. My concern now is that the Brooks and Wrangells are going to get hammered as the demand for sheep far exceeds supply.

The real culprit here is primarily increased freeze/thaw and rain on snow events at high elevations over the last decade or so, with a real wallop in the winter of 2019/2020. Sheep are real good at surviving in cold and dry conditions, even with significant snowfall…add an ice layer in the snowpack and not some much. Ranges/locations that are colder and experience less liquid water in the winter and early spring are doing better (Brooks, some part of Wrangells). The increased variability associated with climate change is going to have winners and losers…dall sheep are on the wrong side of that equation. That said, predation is a compounding factor that seems to increase as sheep are forced out of areas with good escape terrain to search for food. I do understand the pragmatic approach of most of you here, that focuses on predators, which is a factor that we can actually do something about…in my opinion it’s just not going to do much to rebound this. Bang for buck the best thing we can do now is manage hunters. I’m not against managing non-human predators, it’s just real expensive for what we get out of it. Been cold so far this year, hopefully the trend continues for another decade.

 

[AlaskaMark]

From back in 2008:
“Currently, overcrowding of guides on State lands combined with decreasing wildlife populations is stimulating social disorder between hunter user groups and biological harm to our wildlife which leads to establishment of the restrictive drawing permit hunts.”

-Alaska Professional Hunters Association 2008

The purpose of that quote was to push for a guide concession program on state lands that never happened and is not going to happen. And it came right before the Board of Game was set to meet and deal with the ongoing sheep issues in the Chugach. The board dealt with the known problems there by putting everyone on draw only sheep hunts.

When RHAK formed, one of our main goals was to prevent residents from losing more sheep hunting opportunities, as happened in the Chugach. And to ensure that any future loss of sheep hunting opportunities was a step down process:
1) limit the nonresident component first to draw only with limited allocation
2) if more restrictions were still necessary, limit the resident component

At the BOG meeting to discuss agenda change requests last fall, the board heard the proposal from the guide in 19C who asked that all sheep hunting be closed for all for two years. The Department presented biological information that backed up what we all knew for a while now; the 19C sheep population was in trouble, real trouble. The board decided not to accept that ACR proposal to hear this at their next scheduled meeting (that was for Region IV, not Region III where 19C is located). In the end everyone acknowledged the real problems and left it at, well the Dept has EO authority to shut down the sheep seasons if things "got worse."
It should be noted that the Dept had just previously closed the subsistence sheep season in that unit due to concerns.

None of this should be controversial to anyone who really cares about sheep and sheep conservation. RHAK has consistently put in proposals on this issue, even one where we asked to put all nonres sheep hunters in 19C on draw with an allocation equal to the average # of nonres harvests in the area. It too got shot down.

If guides recognize the problems, then guides should support limiting their nonres clients in the areas with problems. Because like I said previously we can't control the weather and with sheep not included in our Intensive Mgmt law, there is no real means to institute pred control. (fyi, sheep were purposely NOT included as an IM species even though we recognize them as a "subsistence" species, go figure)

This is all so truly frustrating because groups that are supposed to be about "conservation" are not stepping up to protect our sheep and our future hunting opportunities. No one likes to fight over allocations, but in the end we have to look at what is causing the mortality and when hunting restrictions are needed (they are!), we need to ensure that resident sheep hunters don't end up yet again losing out. Keep in mind too that when we limit nonres hunters, we also limit 2DK nonres hunters that the guides continually complain about.

In closing, I know plenty of you here are super knowledgeable about our sheep and also talk to our sheep bios. I've learned from talking with you guys over the years. I just want to say for the record: I do not believe that the FC harvest regime is sustainable all on its own, and neither do some in the Dept., with unlimited sheep hunting opportunity by guided nonres hunters in the areas that allow that. Guides are too good at what they do, truly they are professional hunters, and if there are no limits on guides or nonres sheep hunters those areas will end up like the Chugach and residents will lose opportunity for general sheep hunting opportunities.

Selah,
Mark

 

[ColeyG]

Show where in this thread I indicated the slightest hint, or stated that the Dall Sheep population is increasing or even stable.
In point of "FACT" I have said zero about population.

Which should make one wonder why you are participating in this thread... about populations...at all?

Thanks for the thoughts observations Kyle and Altiholic.

I definitely agree about the combined hardships associated with warm winters. The double whammy of combinations of having to work harder for food, and the additional exposure to predation that happens when they have to leave good escape terrain to find it is pretty devastating.

In 2020, both in the Wrangells and eastern AK Range I found areas with a bunch of white wolf shit on the valley floors, which I had not seen in the past in either place. Clearly from the winter/spring and in places where sheep shouldn't be hanging out for any length of time at least. In one of these places we'd seen 25 rams in the 2019 season and took a very nice 39" 10 y/o with 14" bases and I let a bigger one go. At least three of the other rams we saw were mature. In 2020 in the same area, the white wolf shit year, we saw six rams with only one barely legal.

 

[Sourdough]

Scout, research, scout again. Instead of getting drunk on the 4th maybe use that three day weekend to go look...then have a drink to celebrate!

Being a "hunter" has massively shifted. If you look at what was a hunter pre-internet is is substantially different then today.

No one will admit to being "Programed". But internet forums, blogs, social media are aggressively programing hunters. Intentionally and unintentionally, and accidently.

That is "not" going to change. Hunting is for the most part no longer sport. The "sport" part has been removed. For the most part the hunter "skills" have also been removed.

Hunting NOW is focused "Shopping". And super-super focused Marketing. Funny how male hunters, have mimicked ladies, obsession with dressing properly, in the latest styles. Long gone is WW-II surplus olive drab pretty much everything. Or going to Salvation Army and buying anything green or brown.

If you want to be a hunter now......you need to "BUY" the latest wizz'bang super Range Finder (gone are the days of being skilled at estimating range). You need special bullets and cartridges, special optics, special super-super-super long range rifles (to hell with that "silly" stalking foolishness. Besides if you really what to be worshiped today on internet, the shot needs to be 600 to 800 yards. It is all about the equipment. The equipment has replaced the "Skill" of being a "Hunter".

The skill now is not crawling 440 yards on your belly, for a 170 yard shot, it is take the 610 yard shot. The equipment gets it done, it could be said that the equipment is the hunter. The "person" is the "skilled" shopper, shopping for the transporter who did the scouting for them, flies them to the game, where the range finder starts to work, then the rifle, optic, bullet, etc. get'r-done.

look at the thread titles, on forums. Fully 20+% start with the words "Where or What". The reason some know where there are pockets of game are is because they spent so-so-so much time in the field studying the game.

Scouting is done on the internet, not in the field, with boots on the ground. It will be only a few years till drones will be "legal", but you can't shoot the same day your drone way aloft. Drones are simply the next "wizz'bang" pieces of equipment.

You'all ever watch wolves kill a dozen sheep.....??? They disable one in an instant, and spring for the next sheep in a blur of speed, disable it, spring for the next. Then they kill each disabled sheep, it is both disgusting to watch, and mesmerizing how fast and highly skilled they have perfected killing.

 

[ColeyG]

You paint with a pretty broad brush and seem to dwell in the realms of opinion and perception more than fact and reality.

Your characterization of "hunters" these days may be close in some instances, but nowhere near the majority, in my experience.

 

[birdhunter]

Its seems that this thread which is a legitimate concern for both res and nr hunters has gone completely off track.I am booked for a hunt August 2022 and have serious concerns ,having booked the hunt 3 yrs.previous.Im hoping there is more clarity from the state on this and more of the mostly excellent observations being posted here.Thanks fellow sliders.

 

[kaboku68]

Birdhunter. You will be fine. We are talking about larger population trends. You seem to be a person who did the research to find a guide that has an extensive knowledge of their hunting area. The best guides are successful because they really, truly are super professionals and they will find a way to make your experience a wonderful one.

 

[wildwilderness]

I am relatively new to AK sheep hunting so I don't have the history to compare to- but here are my observations for the seasons we have been out in different areas-

2019- saw a few sheep, lambs and ewes, and a couple younger rams. Only 1 legal ram a 7 yo full curl (only by tip tangent rule on one side) my son shot. Seemed like low numbers

2020- saw a lot of sheep, mostly lambs and ewes, a couple banana rams and one 6 ish year old. Finally on the third trip in solo I found a band of 7 rams- 2 looked like 7/8th curl and 7 yo. while another was broomed on one side, and lots of rings. I killed that ram and was aged at 10 years old....

2021- saw less sheep than year before, but more bands of rams with multiple age structure. A number of nice 7/8th curls, a couple that may be 8+ years old based on size but could not get close enough to accurately age. Closed on one band of 8 rams and positively aged the oldest at 8+ yo. 2 others we aged at 7 yo. None full curl. After killing that older ram it was officially sealed at 10 years old....

Anecdotal evidence from other known sheep hunters- 2019 was regular, 2020 was bad, 2021 saw slight improvement


Warm springs with the Thaw/Freeze cycle are detrimental to sheep. Also warmer weather will allow brush/trees to move higher up in elevation encroaching on ideal sheep habitat.

I saw bears on every sheep hunt. Did not think to kill them.... had one shred a tent and sleeping bag. Now I will kill every predator on sight.

 

[wildwilderness]

$250 dollar bounty paid by the state for each wolf shot. $50 per coyote. Golden Eagle populations need to be studied and cropped a bit by predator control. There are some areas where hunting pairs of Golden Eagles have gotten too good at cropping ewes and lambs. They force bands of sheep into some more marginal feeding areas and that impacts winter survival. I am not going to say more about it but predator control is key. There are some areas of the state because of access and expenses of transportation that actually have numbers of mature "trophy" rams. The golden days of TMA and DCUA are over. Central and more western Alaska range are getting pummeled. Eventually the North Wrangells will start to fall because of hunting pressure. Those very effective Golden Eagle pairs need to be cropped in the Chugach, Kenai, Talkeetna and Central Alaska Ranges.

There is no money for sheep from fish and game. Caribou and Moose get the lions share. They only use leftover money for sheep counts- most haven't been done in years

There is no way the govt will approve killing Golden Eagles- SSS

 

[Sourdough]

Now I will kill every predator on sight.

Welcome to "Enlightenment".