AED strategies

[MostlyElk]

Hi all. Brand new here. Had an unfortunate incident a couple days ago where my hunting partner collapsed and died on the hike out. Only thing that could've saved him is an AED. Researched. Looks like a 3 lb addition to the pack, but operating temp for all models is >32F bc the battery electrolyte solution is water based. Looking for feedback from people who have figured out how to pack an AED on cold weather hunts. Theoreticals are welcome but really would like to hear from people who have done it. I hunt in western MT. Thx.

 

[4Truck]

Assuming a patient with a shockable rhythm, an AED is still not definitive care. Post shock, most folks aren’t restored to health, they still require intervention. He’s tot would do in that situation is to buy you time. Sorry for the loss of your friend.

 

[Speaks]

Sorry to hear that man, no advice but you do have my sympathy.

 

[DuckDawg22]

No advice but following along, very sorry for your loss.

 

[MostlyElk]

Assuming a patient with a shockable rhythm, an AED is still not definitive care. Post shock, most folks aren’t restored to health, they still require intervention. He’s tot would do in that situation is to buy you time. Sorry for the loss of your friend.

I understand. It was 1 hr 10 min b4 life flight crew was on scene. His best chance was shock(s). Without an AED he had no chance. I will carry an AED from now on, but looking for solutions for sub freezing conditions.

 

[Blurry1]

I’ve never don’t the research and I’m sure you’ll pay a pretty penny but I would be asking this question to Search and Rescue teams or sites. They are going to have the best information on what’s available. Sorry for your loss.

 

[MostlyElk]

I’ve never don’t the research and I’m sure you’ll pay a pretty penny but I would be asking this question to Search and Rescue teams or sites. They are going to have the best information on what’s available. Sorry for your loss.

$1500-$2000, which i will gladly pay not to feel so helpless again. Just trying to get past the temperature limitation. I have similar posts on backcountry EMT sites but wanted to hear what hunters had to say. Thanks.

 

[RockAndSage]

Man, that is rough as hell to go through. Great question to ask though.

As mentioned, it may or may not have helped, given limited info on what his heart and body were experiencing right then. But, again, great question.

If you really want to be proactive medically on future hunts, for whatever reason, you might consider finding a local community college and check into an EMT-I class. They're usually a semester long, certification usually requires a number of working ride-alongs, and you'll meet experienced pros who are up-to-date on standard of emergency medical care, who would probably be more than happy to talk through the what-ifs of what happened to your hunting partner, and similar. And, point you in the right direction for any specific skills you'd need or would want to acquire. It's excellent baseline training for anyone, from dads to outdoorsmen to tradesmen, and isn't too big of an ask on time.

 

[Chris in TN]

No real advice, but I sorry for the loss of your friend.

 

[Braaap]

Sorry for your loss. The odds that an AED wouldn’t made a difference is very slim. Like someone else mentioned you need a hospital ASAP even if you had a shockable rhythm and were able to deliver a shock and restore a good rhythm. I use AED/cardiac monitor during cardiac arrests for work very often and it’s almost always unsuccessful even in the middle of the city with the hospital nearby.

I would not bother with the time needed for AEMT class. I would focus more on preventative care for you and hunting partners (Bloodwork, stress test, CAC, etc).

 

[Nickofthewoods]

Knowing how to perform good CPR is still a must even if you have an AED. Even then, performing CPR for an hour or more is not realistic for one person so don't beat yourself up too bad over the outcome. Sometimes there's just not much you can do in remote settings.

 

[dsotm]

Even with an AED he wouldn't have made it. Outside of care being much faster on scene odds are very very very slim. Sorry for your loss.

 

[JFK]

If you wanted some piece of mind getting a 12 lead stress test done semi-regularly isn’t a bad idea. They take very little time and they are able to catch a lot of stuff early. Weird heart rhythms, pvc’s ,a fib will generally show up.

Sorry for the loss of your friend.

 

[Marbles]

That is a rough situation, sorry you had to go through it.

If an AED makes you feel better, then go for it. You have to maintain it, have it readily available, replace pads when they expire, and keep it warm in the field. If it is worth having on a hunt, it is worth having all the time. It is more likely to do some good where first medical contact is 5-15 minutes away than in the back country. You are also more likely to need it again where you spend most of your time.

Good preventative care is an excellent recommendation (though many of the examples above aren't preventative care). However, preventative care is for you, it doesn't address your concern for being able to help others and your friends don't want you policing their lives.

Personally, I don't see carrying an AED as practical, particularly in the back country. But, it certainly is doable.

 

[gbflyer]

I’ve used one. An employee went down on the job. There was nothing for it to pick up to shock. The EMTs got there and gave him all they had. They were able to override the lockout so it would shock him anyway. After :45 more minutes of compressions (that ain’t pretty either) the medical director said stop.

Bottom line is they probably save lives but as many have said above it’s not automatic.

Sorry you lost your pard. I for one can’t think of a better way to go.

 

[mtnbound]

Hi all. Brand new here. Had an unfortunate incident a couple days ago where my hunting partner collapsed and died on the hike out. Only thing that could've saved him is an AED. Researched. Looks like a 3 lb addition to the pack, but operating temp for all models is >32F bc the battery electrolyte solution is water based. Looking for feedback from people who have figured out how to pack an AED on cold weather hunts. Theoreticals are welcome but really would like to hear from people who have done it. I hunt in western MT. Thx.

Sorry for your loss.

If carrying one gives you a sense of security, go for it, but sustained cold weather will be an issue, and they do require some maintenance and replacement parts.

As someone who has experience with backcountry fatalities, including cardiac events, an AED does not guarantee someone's life will be saved. Time is the biggest enemy, whether it's in the front country or the backcountry. Air medical support can easily be over an hour in the BC, and if there is no landing zone near the incident location, additional challenges arise. On a recent call for a missing hunter, an AED was carried and used, but once applied, it stated "no shock" as there was no detected heartbeat.

AEDs are powerful tools that can save lives, just like CPR. However, it's crucial to recognize that factors beyond your control can also affect the situation.

 

[willfrye027]

Truly sorry for the loss you experienced. That must have been traumatic. To echo above, maybe there was a slim chance than an AED could have changed the outcome..but we’re talking very very very slim. Even if it was a shockable rhythm (rare), and EMS was able to arrive in one hour…that’s still several hours away from any kind of definitive intervention, assuming you were near a major city. It would have been a miracle for him to survive and have meaningful brain function. You can’t have the burden of his death on you but I totally understand the line of thinking on packing an AED.

Yes, technically feasible, as some have mentioned above. Not practical and it is not like TV where someone gets shocked and sits up and hugs their loved ones. The shock is step one of quite a bit of life support type interventions to buy time until the underlying reason (statistically a heart attack) is fixed.

Personally if I was go down while elk hunting, that is about the best way to go I can imagine. Hope that does not come off as insensitive.

 

[EastHumboldt]

Sorry you had to go through that. I’m sure you felt kind of helpless and it seems like an AED would have been a lifesaver, but probably not. The times when they are lifesaving is cases of electrocution, drowning, choking, or other times when a young and healthy heart is stopped by an accident. Hearts that stop from heart disease are a whole nother thing. I was an EMT on a volunteer fire/ems service for six years or so back in the early nineties. I’ve done CPR dozens of times, and in all those cases we only restored one victim to a perfusing rhythm. She lived and almost fully recovered.

I estimate that maybe 20 of those were before we got an AED, and a dozen or so after we got an AED. Probably 1/2 of that dozen, the AED did not detect a shockable rhythm, so would not let us shock. So I’ve seen 12 or so people treated with an AED… 5-6 people shocked, and we got one back. Even after a perfusing rhythm is restored, the patient needs hi concentration oxygen, and rapid injection of cardiac drugs to improve outcome. They will often have to be intubated. Quite often despite all these interventions they die anyway. We had a guy collapse at work and they got him back, but he was brain damaged badly and could barely walk or talk for the rest of his life. Other people may have experienced a higher success rate YMMV.

So what I’m getting at is IMO you can’t carry enough kit in a back country scenario to provide proper care for a cardiac arrest. You need an ambulance for that , and then rapid admission to an ER and an ICU. And the percentages of restoring a cardiac arrest victim to full function are not super high. I mean they have bad enough heart disease that it stops their heart.

I’m not unsympathetic or unfeeling about it, just realistic. I’m 67. I have ticker issues myself, and cardiac arrest is most likely the way I’ll go. I’ve said often and I really mean it, that I’d like to go on a hunting or fishing trip, although that’s terribly inconsiderate of my partners. Ideal for me though.

 

[turbobrick]

My dad has had multiple heart attacks. The first one very nearly killed him when he had just turned 50. He's 72 now, and when we started hunting about 10 years ago, this was my biggest fear, causing me to jolt awake from actual nightmares of him having another one while we were in BFE Nevada on a hunt.

Ultimately, I decided there really wasn't much I could do, just try to keep him from getting too overheated or pushing it, but heart attacks aren't 100% correlated with that stuff. Ultimately, knowing my dad, and his love for the outdoors, he would have been ok going out that way, I made my peace with it. Fortunately, the worst never happened. He retired from hunting now, but still comes out with us, so its still on my mind.