Action Design For Hunting

[General RE LEE]

I’m going to stir some sh*t up with this post, no doubt. So trigger warning if you’re trying to keep your blood pressure down.

I think the fatal flaw in the Tikka action for hunting is that it is not rock solid safe to carry a round in the chamber. If you do carry it hot, even if it’s unlikely, that safety can be flicked off and that trigger can snag on any number of things and go off. To a lesser extent, the bolt could flip open, though I have never personally had that happen.

This is the only reason I have not gone all in on a Rokstok-Tikka build. I am 1,000 percent convinced of every other argument for that action, I have had one before. It’s just as smooth as a $1,500 custom actions (maybe smoother), it’s durable, the trigger is excellent and reliable, etc etc. All undeniable.

I have a dozen or so custom’s built on 700 custom clones. They’re all collecting dust right now for the same reason. In fact, they’re probably worse in this regard. I did have a stiller long action safety get bumped going through brush once.

The best safety designs? Blaser R8 (Sauer 505 too), Ruger M77. The blaser cannot possibly fire, there is no energy in the firing pin. It is totally inert until cocked. The M77 locks all the way back and snug against the bolt. It’s not protruding, it has zero play, and you can physically see metal on metal blocking that firing pin from dropping. The edge goes to the blaser design here but I’ll argue all day the merits of the M77. They’re rock freaking solid. Unfortunately, there’s just not a lot of good aftermarket options for a modern lightweight stock.

The Winchester model 70 and any similar with the largish blade are better than tikka/remington but I’m only like 85 percent confident carrying an M70. I want to be 100 percent. The safety is always a little loose fitting and not confidence inspiring.

I’m open to the MCR Marshall whenever that comes out. I’ll buy one and try it.

Operating firearms isn’t for everyone

 

[Machingeaneer]

This thread essentially boils down to a person's opinions of how hard it is to push a switch.

 

[rbutcher1234]

This thread is a joke right? Carry the gun in condition 3 unless it’s in your hands and needed to shoot quickly. If it’s in your hands, then safety manipulation shouldn’t be a problem.

 

[Chris in TN]

What is different about the Blaser is that there is zero mechanical energy for the firing pin to strike the primer.

You literally cannot, regardless of trigger weight, set that round off.

Just a hypothetical question here:

-Let's say you had a current production Tikka, but could remove the trigger and safety and replace it with what I'm about to describe:

-A primary safety lever that works like the current safety.
-A secondary safety button. If you depress this button, the bolt can be opened with the safety still engaged.
-You must depress the button to disengage the safety lever.
(Eta: assume this safety mechanically locks the FP rearward)

Would that suit you, or would you still be bothered by the stored energy in the FP spring? I'm thinking that a design like that would add a layer of difficulty to causing a negligent discharge while out hunting, but with proper design would be easy to press-and-flip in a quick-shot scenario.

Not something I personally want but might appeal to OP?

Also, there is no reason, ever, to have a trigger lighter than 1.5# on a hunting rifle. I prefer 28 ounces. A guy who hunts in colder weather might prefer 48 with a minimum of 40 or so. But there’s no advantage, and significant disadvantage, to going below that range.

 

[Wprinkle]

 

[Wprinkle]

 

[Wprinkle]

 

[Marbles]

Also, there is no reason, ever, to have a trigger lighter than 1.5# on a hunting rifle. I prefer 28 ounces. A guy who hunts in colder weather might prefer 48 with a minimum of 40 or so. But there’s no advantage, and significant disadvantage, to going below that range.

Blaser agrees with you, just look at the weights the consider hunting vs match on the ATZL trigger. Basically, the OP thinks Blaser is stupid in their recommendations and designed a rifle to do something they didn't, both on trigger weight and leaving a round chambered.

He also assumes we are stupid and doesn't read what we right. Example, I say human factors, regardless of if mechanically safe, and he starts telling me I don't understand what decocking is.

So, this who thread, as many have pointed out, is a waste of time, an illusion of a conversation, but he intends to talk to us, not with us.

 

[Chris in TN]

View attachment 972924

I’m sitting in a deer stand listening to rain on the metal roof and enjoying these memes. If we don’t shoot something by 0830 we are going to have fried backstrap for breakfast.

So, this who thread, as many have pointed out, is a waste of time, an illusion of a conversation, but he intends to talk to us, not with us.

That’s the entire internet in a nutshell. It’s like ‘mirror mirror on the wall, who’s the smartest/prettiest of them all’ except the mirror is tired of your silliness and has heard it before and it has memes. Unless you’re actually pretty or smart, but that’s rare.

 

[Kauaihunter]

 

[rookieforever33]

Do you really think after all the logical posts by logical people the OP is going to listen to anyone. Especially you or I that posted pictures of major F ups. Just sit back and enjoy the memes until this thread passes.

 

[Robinhood21]

Thinking too much, just go hunting...

 

[Chris in TN]

Blaser agrees with you, just look at the weights the consider hunting vs match on the ATZL trigger. Basically, the OP thinks Blaser is stupid in their recommendations and designed a rifle to do something they didn't, both on trigger weight and leaving a round chambered.

I'm not terribly familiar with the R8 so I did a google search and - I kid you not - one of the first results was OP's thread here from May of this year.

The thread where he admits to sending a round too early and ruining a group because......the trigger was too light.

Too light *from a benchrest*.

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/blaser-r8-ultimate-w-atzl-trigger.407102/post-4183281

So he's all excited about this gun that won't go off by itself but hasn't done anything to fix the known problem with *him* making it go off prematurely.

 

[RockAndSage]

I'm not terribly familiar with the R8 so I did a google search and - I kid you not - one of the first results was OP's thread here from May of this year.

The thread where he admits to sending a round too early and ruining a group because......the trigger was too light.

Too light *from a benchrest*.

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/blaser-r8-ultimate-w-atzl-trigger.407102/post-4183281

So he's all excited about this gun that won't go off by itself but hasn't done anything to fix the known problem with *him* making it go off prematurely.

Looking for the WTF emoji...because, just, WTF.

Not sure if OP is a troll, or a kid.

 

[Kjc103]

Blaser agrees with you, just look at the weights the consider hunting vs match on the ATZL trigger. Basically, the OP thinks Blaser is stupid in their recommendations and designed a rifle to do something they didn't, both on trigger weight and leaving a round chambered.

He also assumes we are stupid and doesn't read what we right. Example, I say human factors, regardless of if mechanically safe, and he starts telling me I don't understand what decocking is.

So, this who thread, as many have pointed out, is a waste of time, an illusion of a conversation, but he intends to talk to us, not with us.

Just a hypothetical question here:

-Let's say you had a current production Tikka, but could remove the trigger and safety and replace it with what I'm about to describe:

-A primary safety lever that works like the current safety.
-A secondary safety button. If you depress this button, the bolt can be opened with the safety still engaged.
-You must depress the button to disengage the safety lever.
(Eta: assume this safety mechanically locks the FP rearward)

Would that suit you, or would you still be bothered by the stored energy in the FP spring? I'm thinking that a design like that would add a layer of difficulty to causing a negligent discharge while out hunting, but with proper design would be easy to press-and-flip in a quick-shot scenario.

Not something I personally want but might appeal to OP?

Also, there is no reason, ever, to have a trigger lighter than 1.5# on a hunting rifle. I prefer 28 ounces. A guy who hunts in colder weather might prefer 48 with a minimum of 40 or so. But there’s no advantage, and significant disadvantage, to going below that range.

It sounds like your describing the Sako 90 or S20 design?

You depress a lever in order to cycle the bolt while it’s on safe?

 

[Kjc103]

Anything said on a forum is fair game for criticism, no doubt. I knew that walking into this and I’m perfectly comfortable, personally, with a contrarian view. However, if you’re just piling on to what you think I said based on what another guy thinks I said, then that is just group think.

This particular forum, the match hunting bullet forum, would be utterly skewered for the claims made here and even accused of being “unethical”, on most other forums. Using match bullets is actually a pretty wild idea outside of this place. Fortunately, you’re also not afraid to be contrarians.

I will own two claims, specifically, I do hunt with an ATZL (match/hunt) trigger. I have 3,000 plus training rounds on this rifle, I know the trigger well, I shoot better with it. To me, I can make a more ethical shot with it. I know when it breaks and I don’t think that’s wrong. I can “arm” and “de-arm” my Blaser easily and at will. It’s never getting hauled around with a 4 oz trigger and “safety” off. Repeat, I’m not hailing it around, loaded chamber, ready to fire, 4 oz trigger.

If needed, I can set it to “hunt”, which raises the pull weight by about a pound (still quite light) if I were ever wearing gloves or my fingers were cold.

Two, I load a round in the pipe, I de-cock the gun, and I consider it safe. I hike with it, pack it for hours etc etc. I know the design well, I do think it’s perfectly secure and not irresponsible. I wouldn’t do that with a tikka, personally. Some of you have stated that you do. I’m sure your confident and familiar enough with your weapon but that is just not the choice I would make for the reasons I have already mentioned.

I dont think either of those two things are irresponsible but hey, if you do, I’m not going to fight you on it. We just see it differently.

Things I definitely did not say:

Tikkas are un-safe
Tikkas aren’t good
Let me tell you how much better my expensive rifle is, yours sucks.
I don’t believe in muzzle control or proper firearms safety
I know more than you, you’re dumb.
I’m an expert.
Everyone should buy a Blaser because everything else sucks.

Someone mentioned I was talking “at” the group instead of with the group. I think that’s fair, I can be pretty condescending. It was definitely my intention to do that to specific people a few times, not to the whole group. I actually have immense respect for the folks here because I think out of all the forums, this group has the highest percentage of people that take shooting seriously, as a craft and who actually spend time hunting. I also think if you guys get past the messenger (me) and look at the inherent merits of the design I’m describing, there’s good stuff there that I wish was a more available and affordable design.

 

[hibernation]

 

[Chris in TN]

It sounds like your describing the Sako 90 or S20 design?

You depress a lever in order to cycle the bolt while it’s on safe?

I wasn't thinking of that specifically, but, yeah, would that design suit you?

 

[JohnJohnson]

I'm not terribly familiar with the R8 so I did a google search and - I kid you not - one of the first results was OP's thread here from May of this year.

The thread where he admits to sending a round too early and ruining a group because......the trigger was too light.

Too light *from a benchrest*.

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/blaser-r8-ultimate-w-atzl-trigger.407102/post-4183281

So he's all excited about this gun that won't go off by itself but hasn't done anything to fix the known problem with *him* making it go off prematurely.

God I love receipts.

 

[MontyMontana]

I think I lost IQ points reading this..............