A Problem with Guides

[Big Sky Guy]

I agree there are good and bad of every business out there.

As far as turning people in I gave up on that avenue, I have done it in the past with land owners an a guide and it's always the same result. " I can't do anything about it unless I catch them in the act."

Had a private land owner hazing elk last year with a spot light running his truck back and forth to keep the elk on his property, they come down into public to feed almost everyday. Turned him in and was told "well I guess I can go talk to him but I won't be able to do anything about it."

Maybe not that instance but if the landowner gets that complaint weekly for a season or two what are the chances they continue to allow the guide to operate? Just because calling folks out doesn’t result in the immediate action we all would like to see does not mean it’s entirely in vain. If we all give up and don’t report it then it will certainly continue as the landowner will likely remain under the illusion everything is going on just fine.

 

[velvet muley]

Maybe not that instance but if the landowner gets that complaint weekly for a season or two what are the chances they continue to allow the guide to operate? Just because calling folks out doesn’t result in the immediate action we all would like to see does not mean it’s entirely in vain. If we all give up and don’t report it then it will certainly continue as the landowner will likely remain under the illusion everything is going on just fine.

Ya, maybe you're right.

From my experience here in Montana when it comes to rich land owners harassing elk it seems that they have the upper hand over the public and FWP. I know they have been turned in multiple times for this type of behavior but unfortunately I think that money has the upper hand.

 

[MTBackroads]

The only people that don't like outfitters and guides have met them in the field.

 

[ReaptheHeat]

Expecting CPW to do anything about illegal outfitter behavior. HA!

 

[Chris in TN]

Tragedy of the commons.

I wish USFS/BLM would draw for access. Like anyone could get a tag OTC but you had to draw hunting access and it was much more tightly controlled. I’d be fine if such a system favored residents and fine if guides existed as I believe they offer legitimate valuable services.

Multiple people openly and physically competing for the same animals will always bring out the worst in people. Not because they’re guides or hunters but because everyone wants the same thing and being aggressive can pay off in terms of animals you harvest.

 

[insanelupus]

The perfect and ideal scenarios in life rarely exist in a world poisened by sin. There is wisdom in accepting the reality of the life around you and understanding you can only control what you think, do, and say. Other people, for some you might have influence, but you don't control them. Focusing on what you can control versus what you can't is often the difference between survivors and victims.

I've spent a lot of my life unconsciously being the victim. Spent it being angry and pissed off at all the "theys and thems" of the world who always do certain things "all the/every time" that "screwed me", or so I thought.

I sure wish I had learned to adapt and pivot better earlier in life, accepting the reality of the situation I was in and making the next best decision. Controlling the controllables and doing the next right thing and learning to accept the things I can't control has lead to a greater level of peace.

I still can get caught up in it, but it always leads to a lot of anxiety and anger I don't want in my life. Thankfully, the Lord reminds me and I can usually begin to pivot. And where appropriate, I try to influence where I can, with individuals, or participating in or opposing the processes I am able (voting, legislation, initiatives, etc.)

But, more and more I'm finding a whole lot more contentment in doing what the Lord would have me to do first, and then what makes the most sense for me and mine to live right, well, and peaceably.

Have a blessed day, y'all.

 

[WRO]

The only people that don't like outfitters and guides have met them in the field.

That’s not true, the internets and real life rarely collide.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Gaddyman]

If you witness a guide/outfitter doing illegal or unethical things, documenting it and calling the state outfitter board is a very easy thing to do. You can also call the local warden. On forest service land, at least in most western states, and outfitter is TOLD where they can put there camp, they do not have a choice where that is, it is determined by forest circus.

There are hundreds of people a year who want to experience a true backcountry wilderness horseback type hunt, which is not possible without public land guides/outfitters and will always be an available option. There a terrible people in every industry in the world from contracting to plumbing to financial advising etc. Thinking that every outfitter and guide is a bad person is a pretty ignorant way of going about life.

I spent 10 years in the industry and the outfits I worked for were all ran by great people who do it for the passion of working with horses in the mountains. They arent wealthy and rich, they work hard to make a living. I havent guided in a long time, and i make a great living in the powerline industry, so im just as much a DIY hunter as anyone reading this. But i also understand both sides of the equation. But, I can assure you complaining on an internet forum, instead of filing an actual complaint with the state outfitting board if you actually witnessed unethical behavior, will never result in things getting better.

Mntnguide,

I have already reported this one outfitter to my state board, the fish and game and the FS. The other I had called fish and game on. Yet i still see both still comes back every year with clients. That is with photos, videos and taking multiple numbers from others that had the same type of run in with that particular outfitter. Like i said, im sure there are great guides out there that are great dudes and put in the work like everyone else. So no im not just complaining on a internet forum and hoping things get better from that. I am just asking others of what they have experienced and seeing if this is a common issue or an isolated experience i had. Im asking this to get a better consensus on what is going on in the industry to better myself and have a more informed view on the issue. I am trying to bring to light an issue i see with this.

 

[Gaddyman]

Are you actually guiding them on their hunts or just my providing the supporting pack stock? I know it’s technically considered guiding to do both in most areas but that’s also probably another distinction I’m not sure the OP made and from what I read is mostly writing about full-guide/outfit where they are providing the meals, lodging (wall tent), horses and then going out 1on1 or 1on2 guide to hunter to call, spot and get the hunter a shot opportunity.

I think just providing the stock and support mitigates some of the territorial and envious feelings guides get towards DIYers as the expectation for a harvest is likely not the same and if a hunter fails to harvest it’s on them, not the guide that just took $5k+ from them.

I think what you just said at the end there brings up the issue. the avg DIYer looses little with no harvest, but the guide takes 5k for exsample. This creates a new tention that causes guides to be more pushy toward the avg person just hunting. Thus ruining it. If your just hunting on ur own and get pushed out or beat by another avg hunter its an o well moment. They beat you to the chase and its fair. But when you have guides go out of their way to dominate an area or push an animal away from you to get there client a animal. It makes for them to get alot more bold bc of the money behind it

 

[mntnguide]

Mntnguide,

I have already reported this one outfitter to my state board, the fish and game and the FS. The other I had called fish and game on. Yet i still see both still comes back every year with clients. That is with photos, videos and taking multiple numbers from others that had the same type of run in with that particular outfitter. Like i said, im sure there are great guides out there that are great dudes and put in the work like everyone else. So no im not just complaining on a internet forum and hoping things get better from that. I am just asking others of what they have experienced and seeing if this is a common issue or an isolated experience i had. Im asking this to get a better consensus on what is going on in the industry to better myself and have a more informed view on the issue. I am trying to bring to light an issue i see with this.

Not sure what state youre dealing with, but that is unfortunate for sure. Especially when you are doing the right thing with documenting the things going on. Nothing pisses me off more than the long range BS from outfitters or DIY hunters, that wound game, ive seen it plenty out here in western WY as well now adays. To many companies making good rifles, and way to many below average hunters thinking that means they should be shooting game at 600+ yards.

 

[Gaddyman]

Another point I think most guys don’t think about. Outfitters pay a portion of their gross income to the forest service district they work in. That money goes directly to the management of that district. Given the funding cuts to the forest service, that isn’t inconsequential to management of public lands.

I totally agree that we are then cutting money out, but i would love to see those numbers and see what it would really cost to supplement that. If my tag cost 10 more dollars but i didnt have to deal with a guide i would pay it instantly.

 

[WCB]

More land in the Dakotas is locked up due to asshole hunters than it is because of guides and outfitters. there are no doubt areas where the opposite it true but it is private land...not your call it is up to the landowners.

Public land...if I know an outfitter operates in the immediate area I just don't go there. Never ran into a guide or outfitter blocking access. But a private landowner yes. A set of bolt cutters makes quick work of pig fence.

I used to guide big game, upland, and waterfowl. Never had a negative encounter with "the public". I have never ran into a guide or outfitter that I would say is a negative experience either. There are things I don't like about the outfitting business or rules around it like guaranteed tags or better odds with an outfitter. I don't think it should be done away with but like the "influencers" that build their living around it...there should be harsher penalties for violations. Also, unless you reported the wrong doings you have zero leg to stand on in my opinion.

 

[RockAndSage]

Outfitters getting territorial and acting like pirates on public land tend to chill the hell out real quick when they know they're being recorded.

Good outfitters aren't sitting on one buck or one basin - they've got backup plans they've scouted just as heavily, and don't pull those schoolyard games.

 

[Gaddyman]

Not sure what state youre dealing with, but that is unfortunate for sure. Especially when you are doing the right thing with documenting the things going on. Nothing pisses me off more than the long range BS from outfitters or DIY hunters, that wound game, ive seen it plenty out here in western WY as well now adays. To many companies making good rifles, and way to many below average hunters thinking that means they should be shooting game at 600+ yards.

Totally agree, people see a 1/2 moa rifle and assume they are good to go at long range after shooting it at 100 yards only and not fully understanding every factor that comes into play. Not even to mention if that shot is really ethical to begin with. That goes for anyone in this hobby.

More land in the Dakotas is locked up due to asshole hunters than it is because of guides and outfitters. there are no doubt areas where the opposite it true but it is private land...not your call it is up to the landowners.

Public land...if I know an outfitter operates in the immediate area I just don't go there. Never ran into a guide or outfitter blocking access. But a private landowner yes. A set of bolt cutters makes quick work of pig fence.

I used to guide big game, upland, and waterfowl. Never had a negative encounter with "the public". I have never ran into a guide or outfitter that I would say is a negative experience either. There are things I don't like about the outfitting business or rules around it like guaranteed tags or better odds with an outfitter. I don't think it should be done away with but like the "influencers" that build their living around it...there should be harsher penalties for violations. Also, unless you reported the wrong doings you have zero leg to stand on in my opinion.

read my reply to Mnt hunter