A different take on trophy mule deer management - Our solutions have been the problem

[WRO]

You already responded to a comment that would have matched mine but I will just say that my point is that the cost of managing for bucks older than 4.5 is not worth it in my eyes. It requires making hundreds of hunters sit out so that a few dozen hunters can shoot a deer that is marginally bigger. I didn't intend to give the idea that I think bucks peak at 4.5 years old. Some do and some don't. Some bucks never break 150 inches no matter how long they live. Some can be 180 inches at 3.5 years old.


This is an example of the cost of trophy management that I think goes too far. They have to get 10 deer to age 5 in order to get 2 deer to live to age 8. There are a lot of good bucks dying along the way of natural causes and a lot of lost opportunity for people to get out and hunt so that 2 people can kill a giant.


I have to ask what you mean by sustainable. Current low deer numbers are not the result of unsustainable hunting pressure. High deer numbers are unsustainable when heavy winters come along and kill them in large numbers. As long as we have winterkill we will need to understand that deer populations will continue to rise and fall. Treating every dip in population as an emergency that requires drastic management changes is not helpful. In Idaho hunter numbers seem to rise and fall naturally with the deer herd. There are nearly 20,000 fewer deer hunters pressuring our herd now than there were 5 years ago and we didn't have to create any limited entry hunts or choose your unit/weapon to do it. (We did eliminate most antlerless opportunity)

The whole state is basically managed for opportunity, there are very few opportunities for a good limited opportunity, or better than otc opportunity.

Your winter kill analogy is broken, if you 50% of 1000 die you have 500 if 50% of 2000 die your left with 1000. Winter will disproportionately kill the young and old.

If you look at the popular OTC units on the western side of the state, the numbers have increased every year almost. Where are you finding 20K less deer hunters?

As hunter numbers plummet across the U.S., Idaho sets records — for now

For years, hunting advocates have been sounding the alarm as

www.spokesman.com

It seems like we’re getting more residents, selling more tags, and our sport is increasing.

 

[AHayes111]

I’ve spent some time with guys who manage for big wild deer, they won’t kill a muley under 7 and have harvested several gov tag bucks up to 240.. he said you have to get 10 to 5 to kill 2 at 8 just because they get so hard to kill and many die post rut.


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I would agree with that if your only goal is to harvest the biggest bucks possible, As much as I like big deer, I don't think that that should be the goal of game departments.

 

[WRO]

I would agree with that if your only goal is to harvest the biggest bucks possible, As much as I like big deer, I don't think that that should be the goal of game departments.

I’d agree that it shouldn’t be the main goal, but there should atleast be a few opportunities for those that want to.. Idaho only has a couple units that are managed for quality and numbers.

 

[CorbLand]

I’d agree that it shouldn’t be the main goal, but there should atleast be a few opportunities for those that want to.. Idaho only has a couple units that are managed for quality and numbers.

What is your definition of "a few?"

 

[AHayes111]

I’d agree that it shouldn’t be the main goal, but there should atleast be a few opportunities for those that want to.. Idaho only has a couple units that are managed for quality and numbers.

Agree, There could be very good reasons to have an age structure that contains at least some older bucks in all units. I could be wrong but, my gut tells me that it is best for the herd if the bucks doing the buck of the breeding have proved their worth by surviving a hard winter or two, drought and predators for four or five years. Managing for big deer, no. Managing for a healthy age structure, yes.

 

[idelkslayer]

The whole state is basically managed for opportunity, there are very few opportunities for a good limited opportunity, or better than otc opportunity.

Your winter kill analogy is broken, if you 50% of 1000 die you have 500 if 50% of 2000 die your left with 1000. Winter will disproportionately kill the young and old.

If you look at the popular OTC units on the western side of the state, the numbers have increased every year almost. Where are you finding 20K less deer hunters?

As hunter numbers plummet across the U.S., Idaho sets records — for now

For years, hunting advocates have been sounding the alarm as

www.spokesman.com

It seems like we’re getting more residents, selling more tags, and our sport is increasing.

Yes the majority of the state is managed for opportunity and I want it to stay that way.

The article you cited is over 4 years old. Whatever bump in hunter numbers we saw in 2020 is gone now.
I took a handful of western Idaho units and looked at hunter numbers now and 5 years ago. Statewide numbers are in the bottom row.

Unit	2016​	2020​	2023​
22​	1576​	1232​	1093​
31​	1227​	1222​	1102​
32​	3608​	2589​	2447​
39​	10960​	11208​	10032​
Statewide mule deer hunters	96728​	88603​	74503​

Hunter numbers have been decreasing statewide and are decreasing or stable in my random sample of western Idaho units. Is there a unit I should look at as an example of increasing hunting pressure?

 

[cbeard64]

I think history has shown that every type of management has an effect. You can manage for more hunters (more tags), less hunters (fewer tags), or something in between using other techniques (weapons restrictions, changing season dates, etc., etc…)

But when it comes to ungulate management, there is no solution that allows hunters to have their cake and eat it too i.e. more opportunities and better bucks. It just doesn’t work that way.

 

[WRO]

Yes the majority of the state is managed for opportunity and I want it to stay that way.

The article you cited is over 4 years old. Whatever bump in hunter numbers we saw in 2020 is gone now.
I took a handful of western Idaho units and looked at hunter numbers now and 5 years ago. Statewide numbers are in the bottom row.

Unit	2016​	2020​	2023​
22​	1576​	1232​	1093​
31​	1227​	1222​	1102​
32​	3608​	2589​	2447​
39​	10960​	11208​	10032​
Statewide mule deer hunters	96728​	88603​	73316​

Hunter numbers have been decreasing statewide and are decreasing or stable in my random sample of western Idaho units. Is there a unit I should look at as an example of increasing hunting pressure?

Where did you find the total tag numbers at?

Interesting data set and I learned something, thank you. Interestingly enough total hunter days looking through the stats didn’t change much.

 

[idelkslayer]

Where did you find the total tag numbers at?

Interesting data set and I learned something, thank you. Interestingly enough total hunter days looking through the stats didn’t change much.

The unit specific information is from the harvest data on IDFG website. Since some hunters hunt multiple units they are counted multiple times in those stats. For total numbers and historical info I look through old management reports on the IDFG website. Those don't get updated often enough but IDFG has been publishing these articles for the last decade or so. I have been pulling my most recent data from them. It appears that I got the total mule deer hunter number wrong for 2023. I found a different IDFG article that gives the number as 74,503. I had calculated it based on the total mule deer harvest and overall success rate in a different article. The error is probably due to rounding in the published success rate. I will correct it in my previous post but I mention it here so everyone knows that I am aware that I can be wrong.

I think the total hunter days reflects increased effort by those who are still hunting. Bucks have been harder to find and the people that are still getting after it are a little more motivated. I think this partly contributes to the feeling of crowding that many have felt the last few years. More days in the field and moving around more to find game makes for more opportunities to run into other hunters.

Here are a couple of the annual harvest articles I referred to above:
For the 2023 season

2024 Hunting Outlook: Mule Deer

Heading up into the mountains for mule deer this month? Here's a quick recap of how mule deer hunting is shaping up for the 2024 hunting season.

idfg.idaho.gov

For the 2020 season

Hunter harvest was up for elk, mule deer and white-tailed deer in 2020 seasons

idfg.idaho.gov

Here is a table from a management report showing 2016 and 2017 mule deer hunter numbers:

 

[Customweld]

The unit specific information is from the harvest data on IDFG website. Since some hunters hunt multiple units they are counted multiple times in those stats. For total numbers and historical info I look through old management reports on the IDFG website. Those don't get updated often enough but IDFG has been publishing these articles for the last decade or so. I have been pulling my most recent data from them. It appears that I got the total mule deer hunter number wrong for 2023. I found a different IDFG article that gives the number as 74,503. I had calculated it based on the total mule deer harvest and overall success rate in a different article. The error is probably due to rounding in the published success rate. I will correct it in my previous post but I mention it here so everyone knows that I am aware that I can be wrong.

I think the total hunter days reflects increased effort by those who are still hunting. Bucks have been harder to find and the people that are still getting after it are a little more motivated. I think this partly contributes to the feeling of crowding that many have felt the last few years. More days in the field and moving around more to find game makes for more opportunities to run into other hunters.

Here are a couple of the annual harvest articles I referred to above:
For the 2023 season

2024 Hunting Outlook: Mule Deer

Heading up into the mountains for mule deer this month? Here's a quick recap of how mule deer hunting is shaping up for the 2024 hunting season.

idfg.idaho.gov

For the 2020 season

Hunter harvest was up for elk, mule deer and white-tailed deer in 2020 seasons

idfg.idaho.gov

Here is a table from a management report showing 2016 and 2017 mule deer hunter numbers:
View attachment 841697

That bottom table really shows how hard that winter hit.

 

[idelkslayer]

Robby recently posted a podcast and thread for discussing it here:

Idaho Mule Deer Propsals-public comment opp closes 2/23/25

https://www.rokslide.com/idaho-mule-deer-proposals-you-got-4-days/

rokslide.com

It was a good discussion with one of the members of the Southeast Idaho mule deer advisory committee. They talk about the proposed changes for Idaho mule deer and Robby does a great job talking about the pros and cons. Robby also brought up the history of the unit XX controlled hunt and I was curious so I looked at the statistics of the unit before and after it was a controlled hunt.

From 2001 to 2007 as a general hunt it averaged 750 hunters, 199 bucks killed, 28.2% 4pt. Which calculates out to 56 4 pt bucks killed.

From 2008 to 2023 as a controlled hunt it averaged 191 hunters, 96 bucks killed, 62.9% 4pt. Which calculates to 68 4 pt bucks killed. Drawing odds last year were 24%. So on average you may get to hunt it every 4 years.

I would absolutely love to hunt a unit with the stats that unit XX has put up. I would point out though, that it has seen the same variations due to hard winters as the surrounding general units. Success rates went from 86% in 2016 to 30% in 2023. %4pt has varied from 37% to 79%. I also look at the trade off. On average, 500 hunters had to go elsewhere or quit so that an additional 12 4 pt bucks could be killed per year. I can acknowledge that the bucks being killed may be older and bigger than the 4 pt bucks that were killed under the general season structure but it is still a big trade off in opportunity for an extra year or two of age class and 12 bucks.

Having a limited entry unit here and there is not a big deal to me. It is nice to have some areas that see less pressure and offer a high quality hunt. Not to sound like a broken record or anything but I am just raising a voice of caution about pushing for more limited entry management. And to maybe consider reopening some controlled hunts to general seasons, maybe as muzzleloader or open sight rifle seasons.

The general season structure in Idaho works well. You can have a quality hunt in general seasons with a little (or a lot) of hard work. You can still find deer and get away from other hunters, and sometimes you share the mountain with others, it happens in controlled hunts too.

And Robby mentioned some great new updates that Fawn: Doe ratios are at some of the highest ever recorded and buck:doe ratios are also up after the mild 23-24 winter and good summer moisture. A couple more years of that and there will be so many bucks that we won't care about the other hunters.

 

[stan_wa]

I like the idea of keeping some limited hunts but upping the tag number to the ideal ballance of deer production.
Having a handful of awesome hunts are fun to dream about but being able
To have a decent hunt every year is living the real dream.

All and all op I really like your approach and mostly agree !

 

[S.Clancy]

I would rather game agencies work with land management agencies on road closures and primitive access to create more escapement than have more LE tags.

 

[stan_wa]

both studies provide circumstantial evidence that increasing the proportion of adult male deer in the population came at the expense of population productivity."

This aligns well several rok cast and GOHUNT podcast
And it make sense logically. If there are less bucks per / 100 does
There is by definition a higher % of does. A higher percentage of does can allow a % higher fawn crop .

But what I’m wondering is does the total number of deer in the herd go up or down?

 

[ColoradoV]

Just because someone doesn't care about shooting a booner doesn't mean he's out blasting forkys.

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I dont doubt you will not but from what I have seen w unlimited licenses comes unlimited harvest of younger bucks...

Never seen a buck get even a bit bigger when killed as a forkie.. In the best years in Colorado we had age class or young, med, and old bucks all hanging out together. With the late season changes that only happens in places like around my house or other private hang outs as the age class.

I get where you want opportunity to hunt every year but if you want age class something has to give and that is the every year hunt for everyone.

This guy is here today as I drink my coffee maybe he will ditch the head gear today and I will go w my girls to pick them up.. For me I get enough enjoyment out of other things outside that I dont have to have a rifle or bow to enjoy my time outdoors or heading skiing later. So when I hunt (again I am lucky enough to do every year) I would rather hunt bigger bucks ..

 

[ColoradoV]

I have to bite on this. Just went through the Colorado b+c record typical list and non-typical list.

Top 50 typicals and top 100 non-typicals shot or picked up after 2014: 7

Top 50 typicals and top 100 non-typicals shot or picked up 2003-2007: 8

Biggest non-typicals in the Colorado top 100 shot after 2000:

#2(2007) 306”
#10(2014) 293”
#32(2022) 267”
#40(2007) 260”
#64(2023) 263”
#72(2015) 252”
#95(2003) 248”


3 bucks in the top 100 non-typicals were shot in the 1990’s.

Bucks shot 2003-2007:3
Bucks shot 2014-2024:4

Now for top 50 Typicals after 2000:

#7(2022) 212”
#11(2015) 210”
#17(2006) 208”
#18(2006) 208”
#22(2012) 207”
#27(2006) 206”
#31(2002) 206”
#38(2003) 205”
#47(2022) 204”

2 bucks in the top 50 typicals were shot in the 1990’s.

Bucks between:2003-2007: 5
Bucks between 2014-2024: 3


“The number of book bucks killed from 2003-2007 compared to the last ten years isn’t even a comparison“ ????

Hard saying that when some of the biggest deer EVER have been shot in the last 10 years.

Dude I have seen well a few "big" bucks killed since the mid 80's and no one and I mean no one I know is silly or ego driven enough to put bucks (s) in that stupid book... In certain circles it just does not happen..

I agree with your post except this part is confusing.

If moving all seasons forward 3 weeks it’s going to make it way tougher to kill with a rifle which is the goal. But then it’ll make it way easier during archery.

Since you are an archery hunter it seems like you are promoting what’s best for you. I’m assuming that’s not what you are doing so what’s your reason for moving all seasons earlier? Why not just rifle season?

I hunt em all but yea you are correct as if you have been out there ya know = on August 7 the horns would not be fully formed here in Colorado that would be true for 80%+ of the bucks on August 15th... Since Colorado does not think bowhunters are a valid management tool I guess it is a moot point ya made. It would be more enjoyable as now they have stacked a bunch of seasons on top of each other when the "elk only" CBA choose to move the season back to supposedly help the elk hunters and the crowding out there is noticeable now with archers sometimes getting less that a week before the high power rifles show up. Also undeniably a reason all the seasons got moved back another week... Something to think about for all season structure.....

I read a few points since my last posts and nothing changed my mind as I can only think of one place that is unlimited licenses (only for residents) that still produces good to great bucks and I will not name the units but the terrain and limited population of the state makes this unrealistic other places..

Or ya can't beat totally limited licenses from where I sit and how I hunt as again I hunt great bucks every single year here in Colorado and if you dont its not the CPW's fault..

 

[dirtytough]

Dude I have seen well a few "big" bucks killed since the mid 80's and no one and I mean no one I know is silly or ego driven enough to put bucks (s) in that stupid book... In certain circles it just does not happen..
View attachment 844014



I hunt em all but yea you are correct as if you have been out there ya know = on August 7 the horns would not be fully formed here in Colorado that would be true for 80%+ of the bucks on August 15th... Since Colorado does not think bowhunters are a valid management tool I guess it is a moot point ya made. It would be more enjoyable as now they have stacked a bunch of seasons on top of each other when the "elk only" CBA choose to move the season back to supposedly help the elk hunters and the crowding out there is noticeable now with archers sometimes getting less that a week before the high power rifles show up. Also undeniably a reason all the seasons got moved back another week... Something to think about for all season structure.....

I read a few points since my last posts and nothing changed my mind as I can only thing of one place that is unlimited licenses (only for residents) that still produces good to great bucks and I will not name the units but the terrain and limited population of the state makes this unrealistic other places..

Or ya can't beat totally limited licenses from where I sit and how I hunt as again I hunt great bucks every single year here in Colorado and if you dont its not the CPW's fault..

Gotcha. So make it harder for rifle hunters and easier for archery hunters.

 

[ColoradoV]

Gotcha. So make it harder for rifle hunters and easier for archery hunters.

So you hate archery or something inform me how it would make it easier than it is now I am not following your logic? A week or so earlier start (back to what it was for what 20 years) would just spread things out and limit the over crowding that is happening many places now it would not make it any easier to find or kill em that stays the same.

So again how would it get easier? Inform me..

Easier is these very late rut tags.. Or for an example I went on the holy of holy units w my 76 year old father during the latest of late seasons a few years ago. Way easier than archery not even the same class of hunt passed a few 190" type bucks.. We decided on a 34" wide 220" buck boom or bust but my father would not shoot over 350 yards w his pre 64 30-06 so when we had the buck at 432 I just took pics.. Easy peasy hunt for a 76 year old.. Much easier for us 50 year old pups..

Easy is late not early man..

 

[dirtytough]

So you hate archery or something inform me how it would make it easier than it is now I am not following your logic? A week or so earlier start would just spread things out and limit the over crowding that is happening many places now it would not make it any easier to find or kill em that stays the same.

So again how would it get easier? Inform me..

I don’t hate archery at all. I archery, muzzy, and rifle hunt.

First you said move the season 3 weeks back for all weapons. Not 1 week.

If the goal is to change the season so the mature bucks aren’t getting hunted when they are the most vulnerable yep moving the season out of the rut helps. But moving any season into August doesn’t. That would just allow archers more time to kill them before they get harder to hunt.

You and I both know mule deer are easier to hunt in August versus September. Not sure why you are denying it.

I’m not a big fan of making it easier on one group while making it harder on another.

 

[ColoradoV]

I don’t hate archery at all. I archery, muzzy, and rifle hunt.

First you said move the season 3 weeks back for all weapons. Not 1 week.

If the goal is to change the season so the mature bucks aren’t getting hunted when they are the most vulnerable yep moving the season out of the rut helps. But moving any season into August doesn’t. That would just allow archers more time to kill them before they get harder to hunt.

You and I both know mule deer are easier to hunt in August versus September. Not sure why you are denying it.

I’m not a big fan of making it easier on one group while making it harder on another.

So you had to be against moving all the season forward a few years ago just to help the elk hunters at least?

That change for sure 100% impacted archery deer guys negatively and made a crowding issue for archery deer guys as well as muzzy and rifle early deer. Also CPW will say it was a reason for moving all the seasons back as that is undeniable..

Also since I have killed 2 of my last 3 bucks on the last day or the day before the end of the season. 28th of sept on 2 and this year it was the 27th of sept or 2 days before closing... I guess the earlier is easier opinion is also not valid in all cases..

Good luck hashing it out boys I am heading skiing w my girls as that damn buck will not drop his head gear today it looks like. Also one last velvet pic of the buck I shot on Sept 27th of this year as well they all seem to look better to me in velvet rather than hard horned..