9mm home defense

[Fireflyfishing]

Take this how you will

Only thing I took out of this is use an M1 if you want to win.

Got one! Check!

 

[TxLite]

Only thing I took out of this is use an M1 if you want to win.

Got one! Check!

This is the correct take

 

[AntelopeEater]

Why would you settle for a 10MM when you could “get something a little better?”

Check out my post history, I recently got a .44 Mag which I love!

 

[bascheman]

Speer Gold Dot is what I run in all my personal and work guns, both pistol and rifle. They 100% work as intended. As far as which gun and what caliber, use what ever works for you and what you are doing. I use everything from full size Glocks to pocket .38 revolvers. Everything has a purpose for what I'm doing at the time.

 

[texag10]

I am not a fan of 9mm though I realize many people are.

I can remember when I was young a lot of police departments downgraded from .357 mag revolvers and .45 acp semi’s to 9mm semi’s based on the beliefs that the lower recoil and higher capacity would make up for the reduced power.

Then when the real life performance against real world threats with 9mm was found to be unsatisfactory too many times, the .40 S&W became the trendy caliber.

Now the trend is to go back to down to 9mm based on the claim bullet technology has improved.

I can remember when all the people shot with 9mm (124gr Gold Dot) by my department died at the scene, while all those shot by .45 (200gr Gold Dot) had to be fought to get them on the ambulance. Hits matter more than cartridge given the bullets meet some criteria

Well, the new higher tech bullets are even bigger and better when fired from from a .45 or 10mm, etc.

Except there are downsides to a larger cartridge, namely lower capacity for size and increased recoil, which readily shows up if shot timers are used.

If you like low recoil and low cost ammo, a .22lr would arguably be fine for close range self defense with high capacity and the ability to put a lot of shots on target quickly.

But I bet you wouldn’t recommend a 22lr for self defense, right?

Even though in most cases quickly double or triple tapping someone with a .22lr would stop the fight quickly, there will sometimes be that marginal case where a bigger bullet would incapacitate whereas the smaller one wouldn’t.

This is a false equivalency, because .22lr doesn't meet the criteria I alluded to above. 9x19 and up have readily available options that will penetrate more than 12" through ballistic gel, with expansion, and do so after passing through barriers like heavy clothing or auto glass. Those are my criteria, .22 doesnt make the cut. 9mm does, and it does it with less cost, less recoil, and more bullets. I have more chances to end the fight and I can get them on target more quickly.

The same rationale is why I’d like a bigger bullet, especially in a home defense gun where I don’t mind the gun being bigger and heavier than a typical CCW.

A 9mm will usually work fine, but why not get something a little better?

I disagree with your premise that .40/10mm/.45 are actually better when all the relevant factors are taken into account. Realistically, for a given bullet across these cartridges, you are gaining .05-.1" of expansion diameter, with the aforementioned capacity, recoil, cost, and physical size drawbacks.

if you search bulk ammo prices online you can find some great deals on ammo.

For example, Right now Buds Gun Shop has 200 grain CCI 10mm for only 0.33 per round:

https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/62106/cci+blazer+10mm+200+grain+total+metal+jacket+50rd+box

Great, so it's $100 more per 1k case than 9mm.

EDIT: I looked at steel case 9mm above, brass cased magtech is $260/1k with free shipping. So the 10mm is $70 more per 1k.

 

[BrBa]

I am not a fan of 9mm though I realize many people are.

I can remember when I was young a lot of police departments downgraded from .357 mag revolvers and .45 acp semi’s to 9mm semi’s

Don't feel bad. A lot of people still believe in "knockdown power" and plenty of other nonsense.

 

[Point Man]

I'm a believer for sure.

 

[BrBa]

Saw the following in the owner's manual of a recent acquisition, a 5" CQB chambered in 9mm. Enjoy!

"In the first issue of Harris Publication's BALLISTIC magazine they did a survey of 19 well known firearms experts, myself included, asking about our preferred self-defense caliber. The results were overwhelmingly 9mm. Top trainers like Ken Hackathorn, Larry Vickers, Mike Seeklander and Frank Proctor all have gravitated to 9mm. The fact that old die hard .45 guys like Hackathorn and Vickers are gravitating to 9mm tells us a lot." -- Bill Wilson, Founder of Wilson Combat

"As far as capacity goes, with modern self-defense loads, I like 11 rounds of 9mm a lot better than I like 9 rounds of .45!!!" -- Bill Wilson on the 9mm 1911

 

[MattB]

This article has some interesting data on the one-shot stop performance of various calibers/weapons. Seems the gap between most common pistol cartridges is not very wide.

Analyzing 1800 Shootings: Which Caliber Has the Best Stopping Power? - Tier Three Tactical

I'll cut to the chase. Stopping power is largely a myth. Regardless of what the internet tells you, there aren't any magic rounds that are guaranteed to stop someone violently attacking you. However, there certainly are calibers that perform much better than others. This article is going to look...

www.tierthreetactical.com

 

[AntelopeEater]

This article has some interesting data on the one-shot stop performance of various calibers/weapons. Seems the gap between most common pistol cartridges is not very wide.

Analyzing 1800 Shootings: Which Caliber Has the Best Stopping Power? - Tier Three Tactical

I'll cut to the chase. Stopping power is largely a myth. Regardless of what the internet tells you, there aren't any magic rounds that are guaranteed to stop someone violently attacking you. However, there certainly are calibers that perform much better than others. This article is going to look...

www.tierthreetactical.com

Very interesting article.

I liked the fact the chart showed the .44 magnum (my new favorite) had the highest one shot stop of all the cartridges, even shotguns!

But I also understand the article's speculation as to one of the reasons why:

"However, we need to be careful here as we have one large confounding variable. Handgun calibers that are used in revolvers are more likely to have higher one shot stops because you cannot fire them as quickly as semi automatic firearms. This explains why the 44 magnum has a higher one shot stop percentage than the long guns. It is just slower to shoot a big, heavy recoiling revolver than it would be to shoot an AR15, or a 9mm semi auto."

I still like using the one with the highest one shot stop though.

 

[MattB]

Very interesting article.

I liked the fact the chart showed the .44 magnum (my new favorite) had the highest one shot stop of all the cartridges, even shotguns!

But I also understand the article's speculation as to one of the reasons why:

"However, we need to be careful here as we have one large confounding variable. Handgun calibers that are used in revolvers are more likely to have higher one shot stops because you cannot fire them as quickly as semi automatic firearms. This explains why the 44 magnum has a higher one shot stop percentage than the long guns. It is just slower to shoot a big, heavy recoiling revolver than it would be to shoot an AR15, or a 9mm semi auto."

I still like using the one with the highest one shot stop though.

The big issue with .44 mag, aside from the slower follow-up shots highlighted in the article, is over-penetration. As far as I am aware, there are not many (if any) loads that will offer 16" or less penetration. You are still on the hook for whatever outcome results after the bullet passes through the intended target. Capacity is another, although I personally think that can tends to be overstated.

 

[AntelopeEater]

The big issue with .44 mag, aside from the slower follow-up shots highlighted in the article, is over-penetration. As far as I am aware, there are not many (if any) loads that will offer 16" or less penetration. You are still on the hook for whatever outcome results after the bullet passes through the intended target. Capacity is another, although I personally think that can tends to be overstated.

I am not a formal expert on bullets, but if you wanted maximum penetration, wouldn't you want a more narrow bullet as opposed to a wider one?

And wouldn't a self-defense designed bullet expand or fragment while going through a human body?

And if the wider bullet expands and gets even bigger, doesn't it dump its energy more rapidly into whatever "medium" its traveling though?

Also, the problem with the gelatin block tests is they don't simulate hitting bones, and drywall tests don't account for studs or other objects a bullet would like come into contact with if traveling though a home, and the wider the bullet is, especially as it expands, the more likely at least part of it will come into contact with bones, or other harder objects than just soft tissue or drywall.

If the .44 mag bullet expands to over an inch in diameter, it seems extraordinarily unlikely to me it could pass though a human chest with coming into contact with rib bones.

 

[MattB]

If the .44 mag bullet expands to over an inch in diameter, it seems extraordinarily unlikely to me it could pass though a human chest with coming into contact with rib bones.

I very strongly believe the exact opposite is true, that it would be highly likely to penetrate completely through a human chest.

From what I have seen demonstrated, most commercial .44 JHP mag loads penetration 18-22" in ballistic gelatin. Expansion from revolver-length barrels tends to be in the .65"-.75" range, not 1"+.

 

[AntelopeEater]

I very strongly believe the exact opposite is true, that it would be highly likely to penetrate completely through a human chest.

From what I have seen demonstrated, most commercial .44 JHP mag loads penetration 18-22" in ballistic gelatin. Expansion from revolver-length barrels tends to be in the .65"-.75" range, not 1"+.

It would be interesting to put a rack of ribs in front of and behind the ballistics gelatin to see what would happen then.

My only sort of relevant real world experience, with an admittedly unscientific sample size of one, is that last fall I successfully harvested a mule deer with a .50 cal muzzleloader rifle using a saboted Hornady .44 mag bullet.

The .44 mag bullet, even fired from a rifle with an 80 grain charge of Hogdon 777 FFFG, hit the deer in the neck and fragmented on the spine. It did not over penetrate.

 

[BrBa]

It's a decent article, and I agree with his original assertion that stopping power is largely a myth. There are any number of ways the data they used could be skewed. Seriously, how many self defense shootings actually involve a .44 Magnum? I would assume the number is quite small, and it would be particularly small compared to the more commonly used service cartridges. The sample size alone screams grain of salt.

These two charts were entertaining if nothing else:

1) Average Number of Rounds Until Incapacitation - says we should all be carrying a .22 or a .32.

2) Percentage of People Actually Incapacitated by One Shot - looks like .32, .380 and .22 are what we should be carrying.

I'll stick with 9mm and HST's and not lose a wink of sleep over it. But it does make you wonder. I was a young kid who was out sick from school the day Reagan was shot, and watched it in horror on live tv. Pretty incredible the amount of damage some malcontent could do with a cheap 6-shot snub nose .22 revolver....

 

[JF_Idaho]

HST, Gold Dot, Golden Sabre. Depending which caliber and platform at the time, I would depend on any of those 3.