7PRC -Prone to Pressure Signs and Carbon Ring Buildup?

[35WhelenAI]

These problems are unfortunate, yet foreign to me, shooting rounds based off the 30-06 case and standard belted magnums such a 7mm Rem, 300 Win and even a 7mm STW . Have shot thousands of rounds with regular cleaning, etc. through those guns combined. Not saying one way or the other on cleaning, but I do clean regularly. Carbon ring issues (or thinking that's the issue and posting) are something I hear about fairly often on this forum since a few years ago when I signed up. Unfortunate for those that have them, millions of rifles with more than a few rounds through them have fortunately never if I were to take a "wild guess".

 

[TaperPin]

Which is thousand and thousands of rounds, it seems. Thats probably sufficient for most.

I agree with you. How about that we’re like shooting buddies now. Yep, for most people with factory chambers they probably can shoot thousands of rounds.

However, the last guy I noticed with a fouling issue found out on a coyote hunt and he couldn’t chamber a round. Going multiple years to finally get a wall hanger in range and have him walk away because of something so easy to prevent is nothing I’m interested in.

To each their own - after it’s mentioned to someone, I have nothing against grown adults running with scissors, driving without seatbelts, smoking, eating too much sugar, too few vegetables or developing carpel tunnel from too much porn.

Quite honestly the less people clean the more it helps me, I’ve been buying good quality take off barrels with carbon rings for cheap.

 

[deadwolf]

1,000+/- suppressed rounds-

View attachment 751518

Form, not to derail the OPs thread, but if you’re stating that you never clean a barrel, would I be correct in assuming you don’t do any barrel break in per the manufacturers instructions? Just shoot it and go?

Thx.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, not to derail the OPs thread, but if you’re stating that you never clean a barrel, would I be correct in assuming you don’t do any barrel break in per the manufacturers instructions? Just shoot it and go?

Thx.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Correct.

 

[donrleonard]

It’s all bs. Shoot it until the barrel needs replaced.

This is the YouTube video I was referring to. In it, Jim talks about the sad decline in accuracy of his favorite rifle after switching from jacketed lead back to copper bullets, provides us with a 20-shot baseline series of shots grouping around 1.4 moa, then shows it returning to well under 1 MOA over another 20 shots following a thorough cleaning.

 

[donrleonard]

Yo man. I have a 7PRC built on a Tikka action with a 22" ACE Tikka contour barrel. It's almost at 1,000 rounds now and hasn't been cleaned once.

This gun shoots the 180 ELDM's the best followed closely by the 175 ELDX's, both shooting only factory ammo now (first 200 were hand loads). I'd recommend giving either of these a try and report back.

I never shot the 160CX ammo but one of my buddies in California does due to being required to do so. He is okay with the accuracy and performance on deer so far, but his Seekins 7PRC has symptoms like your gun, very sticky bolt at least 1 out of every 5 shots.

Side question, @mxgsfmdpx. Have you taken any game with either of those rounds? Any at close range? The conventional wisdom I hear is that ELD-X is basically a target bullet, and that under 400 yards the velocities will tear it apart before it has a chance to penetrate. Especially on a shoulder shot.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Side question, @mxgsfmdpx. Have you taken any game with either of those rounds? Any at close range? The conventional wisdom I hear is that ELD-X is basically a target bullet, and that under 400 yards the velocities will tear it apart before it has a chance to penetrate. Especially on a shoulder shot.

I’ve killed deer and elk with 175 ELDX yes. It’s devastating on them. As well as 143 ELDX and 90 ELDX. Between those 3 from guns chambered in 7 SAUM, 7 PRC, 28 Nosler, 6.5 PRC, 6.5 CM, .260 Rem, and .243/.243AI I’d guess it’s somewhere around 60 big game animals just with ELDX between myself, my wife, and a couple other family members. Kills from 30 yards to 1,100 yards. I have A LOT more kills with the SSTs as I’ve been killing with them for over 10 years now.

ELDXs are very effective killing bullets in what I’ve seen. I’m looking forward to seeing kill results from 80 ELDXs out of a 22 Creedmoor this season as well.

 

[donrleonard]

I’ve killed deer and elk with 175 ELDX yes. It’s devastating on them. As well as 143 ELDX and 90 ELDX. Between those 3 from guns chambered in 7 SAUM, 7 PRC, 28 Nosler, 6.5 PRC, 6.5 CM, .260 Rem, and .243/.243AI I’d guess it’s somewhere around 60 big game animals just with ELDX between myself, my wife, and a couple other family members. Kills from 30 yards to 1,100 yards. I have A LOT more kills with the SSTs as I’ve been killing with them for over 10 years now.

ELDXs are very effective killing bullets in what I’ve seen. I’m looking forward to seeing kill results from 80 ELDXs out of a 22 Creedmoor this season as well.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Any experience with close-range shoulder shots, or were those kills generally behind the crease? With them leaving the muzzle at 3000fps, I'm just wondering how far I can push them before they vaporize.

Or is that more an issue with the ELD-M? A quick search on this topic here revealed one guy claiming that the X holds together better than the Match ammo in close at high velocity.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

you don’t do any barrel break in per the manufacturers instructions? Just shoot it and go?

Thx.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You’ll notice that rifle manufacturers who make good quality, reliable, long lasting barrels will have zero “barrel break in” procedures. As my buddy who’s been a PM at Sako for over 15 years now would say “take it out of the box and go shoot it. Abuse it. It can take it.”

Barrel break in is one of the most useless things I’ve ever seen folks do with bolt action rifles.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Any experience with close-range shoulder shots, or were those kills generally behind the crease? With them leaving the muzzle at 3000fps, I'm just wondering how far I can push them before they vaporize.

Or is that more an issue with the ELD-M? A quick search on this topic here revealed one guy claiming that the X holds together better than the Match ammo in close at high velocity.

Multiple deer and elk have been killed with ELDM, ELDX, and SSTs under 50 yards. I’ll jump on my PC tomorrow which is hooked to a virtual hard drive where I have kill photos backed up. I’ll send some photos over to you. I’ll include impact velocity, shot location, and internal damage report with entrances, wound channels, destroyed vitals/bones, and exits.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

And in general yes, the X has a SLIGHT edge in “holding together” when compared to the Ms in what I’ve seen in dead animals.

I believe the jacket may be a touch thicker or tougher but I’m not a bullet design expert in the slightest.

 

[donrleonard]

And in general yes, the X has a SLIGHT edge in “holding together” when compared to the Ms in what I’ve seen in dead animals.

I believe the jacket may be a touch thicker or tougher but I’m not a bullet design expert in the slightest.

Thanks man. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your experience with a FNG. One more post and I think I'm a lil Rockslider

 

[donrleonard]

By way of closure, here is a photo of the results of my range day with the 175gr Fusion Tipped bullets in 7PRC. After sending 5 rounds down the center to clear out the bore tech eliminator and warm the barrel up, I sent the other rounds to the three corners yielding just over 1 moa. I suspect the gun is shooting sub-MOA and the grouping variance was due to the nut behind the gun.

The average velocity down my 24inch barrel was 2853 fps, which is nearly below 75fps below box-posted speed (2925fps).

Lest you conclude that my barrel is slow, it shot the light 155gr Terminal Ascents (box 3100fps) at an average of 3168fps. Unfortunately, those were grouping 2moa.

 

[Megalodon]

It’s all bs. Shoot it until the barrel needs replaced.

Pure ******* ignorance yet again. And proof that shooting a lot doesn’t really make you an expert in anything. I’d put you as juuuuust less of a charlatan than Cortina. He probably shoots as much as you do, but actually puts his name out there and has skins on the wall. He’s built his entire reputation/persona on precision and he treats his gun like his ass, cleans it after every use.


The 6.5 PRC that after 150 rounds of ammo loaded in the exact same way, with same lot materials, all of a sudden had extremely hard bolt lift with no velo increase, and it went away after a thorough cleaning wasn’t a carbon ring???!?!?

The 22 GT that shot great for the first 500 rounds, then would blow up ~5% of bullets if I went more than twice without cleaning, then at
800+ rounds is blowing up 8-10% regardless?? Nope! Bullets never blow up and cleaning doesn’t matter because some anonymous moron on line said so!


Anyone reading this thread I would look up what someone like @Frank Green has to say. Again he’s someone who looks at 1,000’s of barrels a year for his living. Not just someone who “sHoOtS a LoT!1!1” and made a name for himself by dropping things…

 

[Formidilosus]

Pure ******* ignorance yet again.

It’s pure ******* ignorance that you don’t generally need to clean between common and standard copper bullets and normal lead core bullets? Cause that’s what I quoted-

And proof that shooting a lot doesn’t really make you an expert in anything. I’d put you as juuuuust less of a charlatan than Cortina. He probably shoots as much as you do, but actually puts his name out there and has skins on the wall. He’s built his entire reputation/persona on precision and he treats his gun like his ass, cleans it after every use.

Interesting. So shooting less makes you have better/more complete information?

And what does F-Class or benchrest have to do with hunting or field shooting in general?

The 6.5 PRC that after 150 rounds of ammo loaded in the exact same way, with same lot materials, all of a sudden had extremely hard bolt lift with no velo increase, and it went away after a thorough cleaning wasn’t a carbon ring???!?!?

What 6.5 PRC? Yours? What chamber, barrel and load?


Did I say that carbon “rings” don’t exist? 150 rounds of ammo and you are getting hard bolt lift? Almost sounds like someone got “cute with chamber, throat, and loads”.


Contact at @Ryan Avery and meet at a range and we’ll shoot a brand new 6.5 PRC with 150 rounds factory ammo in front of you without cleaning and see if “carbon rings” cause issues or if precision is lost.

The 22 GT that shot great for the first 500 rounds, then would blow up ~5% of bullets if I went more than twice without cleaning, then at
800+ rounds is blowing up 8-10% regardless?? Nope! Bullets never blow up and cleaning doesn’t matter because some anonymous moron on line said so!

The only thing that causes bullet blow up is being dirty? Not number and type of lands, bore/groove diameter, firing schedule, bullet type, etc, etc?

Anyone reading this thread I would look up what someone like @Frank Green has to say. Again he’s someone who looks at 1,000’s of barrels a year for his living. Not just someone who “sHoOtS a LoT!1!1” and made a name for himself by dropping things…

Appeal to authority, instead of useful personal data, ok.

Frank Green “looks at 1,000’s of barrel a year”, what does that have to do with the demonstrable fact that the vast majority of cartridges and barrels can be shot for their entire barrel life without cleaning, without blowing the gun up or a functional loss in precision?
Again- there are nearly 30 new people- quite a few from the forum that watched rifles get shot for 1,000 suppressed rounds at S2H courses this year, none cleaned, and none having barrel issues. The last class were shooting rifles that had already had 2,000 or 3,000 rounds on the barrels from the previous classes. Cartridges used were 223, 6cm, 6.5cm, and 308. There were multiple 22cm’s, 6.5prc’s, and at least 1 7PRC that shot more than 500 rounds as well.

Are there specific guns/chambers that need cleaned? Sure. However, the vast, vast majority that have issues without cleaning are people getting stupid with chambers, throat, and loads.

 

[atmat]

Pure ******* ignorance yet again. And proof that shooting a lot doesn’t really make you an expert in anything. I’d put you as juuuuust less of a charlatan than Cortina. He probably shoots as much as you do, but actually puts his name out there and has skins on the wall. He’s built his entire reputation/persona on precision and he treats his gun like his ass, cleans it after every use.


The 6.5 PRC that after 150 rounds of ammo loaded in the exact same way, with same lot materials, all of a sudden had extremely hard bolt lift with no velo increase, and it went away after a thorough cleaning wasn’t a carbon ring???!?!?

The 22 GT that shot great for the first 500 rounds, then would blow up ~5% of bullets if I went more than twice without cleaning, then at
800+ rounds is blowing up 8-10% regardless?? Nope! Bullets never blow up and cleaning doesn’t matter because some anonymous moron on line said so!


Anyone reading this thread I would look up what someone like @Frank Green has to say. Again he’s someone who looks at 1,000’s of barrels a year for his living. Not just someone who “sHoOtS a LoT!1!1” and made a name for himself by dropping things…

Why are you so angry?

 

[The Guide]

If one of the meme lords could make a "show us on the target where Formidilosus hurt you" meme, that would be great.

Jay

 

[donrleonard]

In school I had to buy an expensive textbook called "Statistics for Social Scientists." It opened by explaining how most scientists can run experiments and lab trials in order to test their theories. Because of ethical concerns, many of the important questions social scientists ask, such as "why do wars start," are both immensely complicated and don't lend themselves to field trials. These circumstances require statistics. "It just so happens," they concluded, "that they gave all the easy questions to the physicists."

As a new shooter/hunter, I'm definitely drinking from the fire hose. Juggling the dozen things that can go wrong with a rifle, and the 100 or so errors that we humans can commit at the trigger, it's very easy to fall into hypochondria when something goes wrong with the system. So when a respected shooter like Jim (Backfire) with a record for promoting the 7PRC starts telling haunting tales about carbon rings on wiz-bang cartridges....I go running for the Rokslide wizards.

In the end, @Formidilosus and others were correct when they pointed to common issues with CX bullets and encouraged me to start my troubleshooting by sending different kinds of bullets down my barrel. It worked. The markedly less shitty groups with the Federal ammo are proof, and I'm excited to see how much I can tighten them up with better riflecraft.

Had they not shared this experience, I'd probably still be down in my basement grinding away trying to clear a non-existent carbon ring off of my chamber throat. But that said, I think it's generally wise to be respectful of folks who haven't been as lucky with their rifles as Form and others. In the second video I linked to above, Jim at Backfire did demonstrate pretty conclusively that residue from gilded metal casings were fouling the performance of his rifle with copper bullets. After a thorough cleaning, he was back to sub-MOA.

Regardless, I'm grateful to both camps here for their experience.

 

[atmat]

In school I had to buy an expensive textbook called "Statistics for Social Scientists." It opened by explaining how most scientists can run experiments and lab trials in order to test their theories. Because of ethical concerns, many of the important questions social scientists ask, such as "why do wars start," are both immensely complicated and don't lend themselves to field trials. These circumstances require statistics. "It just so happens," they concluded, "that they gave all the easy questions to the physicists."

As a new shooter/hunter, I'm definitely drinking from the fire hose. Juggling the dozen things that can go wrong with a rifle, and the 100 or so errors that we humans can commit at the trigger, it's very easy to fall into hypochondria when something goes wrong with the system. So when a respected shooter like Jim (Backfire) with a record for promoting the 7PRC starts telling haunting tales about carbon rings on wiz-bang cartridges....I go running for the Rokslide wizards.

In the end, @Formidilosus and others were correct when they pointed to common issues with CX bullets and encouraged me to start my troubleshooting by sending different kinds of bullets down my barrel. It worked. The markedly less shitty groups with the Federal ammo are proof, and I'm excited to see how much I can tighten them up with better riflecraft.

Had they not shared this experience, I'd probably still be down in my basement grinding away trying to clear a non-existent carbon ring off of my chamber throat. But that said, I think it's generally wise to be respectful of folks who haven't been as lucky with their rifles as Form and others. In the second video I linked to above, Jim at Backfire did demonstrate pretty conclusively that residue from gilded metal casings were fouling the performance of his rifle with copper bullets. After a thorough cleaning, he was back to sub-MOA.

Regardless, I'm grateful to both camps here for their experience.

A good general rule is to be cautious of advice from anyone whose financial livelihood depends on you listening.

No offense to Jim or Backfire, but he’s an “influencer” so I'm a skeptic.

 

[SDHNTR]

A good general rule is to be cautious of advice from anyone whose financial livelihood depends on you listening.

No offense to Jim or Backfire, but he’s an “influencer” so I'm a skeptic.

This! X1000

I’ve shot copper through dozens and dozens of rifles interchangeably with traditional copper jacketed bullets and mono copper bullets. Other than obvious poi changes, no ill effects. Not saying it can’t happen, but it’s not common.

The cleaning vs not debate is stale af. Do what works for you. Every barrel and every shooter is different. Just one thing though, if you are going to clean, do it right.

I just put a new scope on a buddy’s old Tikka and he commented how he thought it used to shoot better. I ran 4 different types of ammo through it and couldn’t get better than a 3” group with any of it. Ran a borescope through it and told him to come pick it up and bring his cleaning equipment. When he got there I put the gun in my vice and told him to clean it. Knowing already what I was going to see, sure enough, out comes the wooden Hoppes kit, multi piece metal rod, etc. he proceeds to ram the thing down the bore muzzle first and then yanks it back out the chamber. The muzzle crown and the chamber throat were all worn unevenly. He had no idea. I pulled out my Possum Hollow bore guide and Boretech Rod and showed him how to do it right. Off he went to buy a new rifle. He won’t ruin the next one.