7mm08 6.5 creedmoor or 308

[CBreeze]

I’m just assuming he (the OP) never has shot that far, and hasn’t not really shot many animals and doesn’t own his own rifle yet.

the answer to his question doesn’t depend on his expertise. And whether he is experienced or cherry- has no bearing on the efficacy or merits of the cartridges and there value in a “mountain rifle”

A Ferrari is a Ferrari regardless of how hapless or skilled its driver.

 

[Yarak]

I’m just assuming he (the OP) never has shot that far, and hasn’t not really shot many animals and doesn’t own his own rifle yet.

the answer to his question doesn’t depend on his expertise. And whether he is experienced or cherry- has no bearing on the efficacy or merits of the cartridges and there value in a “mountain rifle”

A Ferrari is a Ferrari regardless of how hapless or skilled its driver.

So you think those 3 cartridges are Ferrari’s
Probably need to read up on maximum effective range
Gilliland dumped a guy at 1350 yds with a 308 and that way past MEF
One more time
Just because the cartridge will shoot that far doesn’t mean you should use them
A 22 LR will
Shoot that far too

 

[CBreeze]

So you think those 3 cartridges are Ferrari’s
Probably need to read up on maximum effective range
Gilliland dumped a guy at 1350 yds with a 308 and that way past MEF
One more time
Just because the cartridge will shoot that far doesn’t mean you should use them
A 22 LR will
Shoot that far too

Love the gilliland reference! Me and James were mountain RIs together after I left 1/75.

 

[Yarak]

Love the gilliland reference! Me and James were mountain RIs together after I left 1/75.

I met James several years ago and he asked me to build him a rifle on the Husqvarna 1640 action
I had to refuse due health reason relating to military service
See I know a little too

 

[PredatorSlayer]

I’ve done a lot of shooting that’s how
Just because you can doesn’t mean you should
All 3 are intermediate cartridges and will shoot that far and further.....again Just because you can doesn’t mean you should
I always say to each his own..this guy ask for a opinion I gave him mine
One parting question...do you know if the OP can or has ever shot that far ?

See post #9

 

[CBreeze]

I met James several years ago and he asked me to build him a rifle on the Husqvarna 1640 action
I had to refuse due health reason relating to military service
See I know a little too

Cool Story, but, none of it changes the math 1800fps at 600 with a bullet that’ll hold together and penetrate well with a 2800fps impact = well tuned 0-600 yard system that only needs 3.8-4 mils of elevation so no need for a 30mm tube and erector and No need for 20x scope. With 56mm obj

Meaning you can build it out less than 7lbs and less than 40” overall using a barrel that’s not ultralight and keeps the weight out front (again nice not needing a 36oz scope) and end up with manageable recoil for quick follow ups and reduced shooter fatigue. It ain’t sexy. It is boring as hell. It obviously isn’t a Ferrari but that’s not my point. The shooter we can make all kinds of assumptions about- but why bother- he’s a variable that doesn’t influence the effectiveness of the cartridge / build overall- he’s only a factor when the rifle is in his hands. Ineffective shooters don’t marginalize a cartridge, they marginalize themselves.
Anyway, sorry you couldn’t build James a rifle. I haven’t talked to him in 10 years but we had a lot of fun at Camp Merrrill and killed a shitload of deer and hogs

 

[ElDudarino]

There really isn’t all that much difference between those 3 cartridges out to 600. I’ve shot a handful of animals to 800 with 6.5 creed and .308. The .308 was a 16” suppressed gun. The animals didn’t seem to notice they weren’t magnums. Most were either bang/flop or bang/look around/stumble a bit/tip over.

Although if you already have a 6.5 prc.... I would just build a light gun in that and be a little flatter with less wind drift.


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[Yarak]

Cool Story, but, none of it changes the math 1800fps at 600 with a bullet that’ll hold together and penetrate well with a 2800fps impact = well tuned 0-600 yard system that only needs 3.8-4 mils of elevation so no need for a 30mm tube and erector and No need for 20x scope. With 56mm obj

Meaning you can build it out less than 7lbs and less than 40” overall using a barrel that’s not ultralight and keeps the weight out front (again nice not needing a 36oz scope) and end up with manageable recoil for quick follow ups and reduced shooter fatigue.
Anyway, sorry you couldn’t build James a rifle. I haven’t talked to him in 10 years but we had a lot of fun at Camp Merrrill and killed a shitload of deer and hogs

I appreciate your math but we’ll just have to agree to disagree
James is one of those Winston county AL boys...some tuff folks come from area
I happen to be from Walker county just south or there

 

[CBreeze]

Sounds like the hard headed ones come from walker county....

Hahahahaha

 

[Yarak]

Sounds like the hard headed ones come from walker county....

Hahahahaha

Well we do have the tendency to be that way

 

[rkcdvm]

I’m partial to the 7-08 but I guess my most honest answer to which one is good/best ...... I think I would answer “yes”

 

[KurtR]

I’ve done a lot of shooting that’s how
Just because you can doesn’t mean you should
All 3 are intermediate cartridges and will shoot that far and further.....again Just because you can doesn’t mean you should
I always say to each his own..this guy ask for a opinion I gave him mine
One parting question...do you know if the OP can or has ever shot that far ?

1300 ft lbs of energy and 2031 FPS with the 143 eldx out the the creedmoor at 600 will be just fine in any way you look at it. I’ve done a fair amount of killing the last decade with the creedmoor starting with the 140 amax. The op outlined his shooting abilities and I have no reason not to believe him.

 

[Formidilosus]

I wouldn’t want to take a shot at a big bull at 600 with any of those choices.

Pass the 300wsm please

But...600 yards ks a very long poke and none would be optimal on game to that range.

You have to be kidding, right? Knock 200 yards off the max and choose a 300 win mag.

I’ll never understand the modern desire to start at a disadvantage for some perceived, yet incalculable benefit.

Look into a 300 PRC if you wanna take big game that far away

600 yds isn’t good for any of the cartridges

600 yds isn’t good for any of the cartridges
That distance is pushing the limits and actually beyond what they’re designed for
Yes they all 3 will shoot that far and yes you can kill with them that far but the more likely outcome is a miss or a wounded animal
If you want to shoot that far and be effective then go with a cartridge fitting the job description

Can you please share your experiences with 6.5 CM’s, 7mm 08’s, and 308’s failing out to 600 yards? Also, can you inform of other experiences y’all have with killing deer, elk, etc. out to 600 yards?

 

[Formidilosus]

I want to put together a lightweight hunting set up for mountain hunting. Will be used for elk, mulies and blackbears. I’d like to have to be able to take game out to 600ish yards with this set up. My son has a 6.5 creedmoor, but I have never owned a 308 or 7mm08 - I have always had big magnums until recently when I bought a 6.5 PRC.
What are your recommendations and why?

I’ve used and killed with all three extensively... and well past 600 yards

The highest hit rates will be with 6.5CM, then 7mm08, then 308. About a 10% difference at 600 in moderate to difficult mountain conditions with a trained wind caller on a 12” target. Highest impact velocity will be nearly tied between the 7mm08 and 6.5 CM, with the 308 a bit below.

As examples, all factory Hornady PH ammo with stated MV in SAC:

308win, 178gr ELD-X, 40% first round





7mm08, 150gr ELD-X, 47%




6.5CM, 143gr ELD-X, 48% first round hit rate-



The comparison and order holds regardless of which bullet and velocity you use from those three cartridges all else being equal.
The 6.5 CM is the most available, least expensive, has the least recoil, the least wind drift, highest hit rate, highest impact speeds, and most likely will agg the smallest.... But people want to “dislike” a brass case and a diameter of a projectile.

 

[Trogon]

Can you please share your experiences with 6.5 CM’s, 7mm 08’s, and 308’s failing out to 600 yards? Also, can you inform of other experiences y’all have with killing deer, elk, etc. out to 600 yards?

I guess, since you're calling me out, I'll just repeat myself. Highlights added for clarity

I wouldn’t want to take a shot at a big bull at 600 with any of those choices.

Pass the 300wsm please

I'll take a 300wsm with 165gr barnes over a 6.5CM with 143gr ELDX if given this scenario any day, for a variety of reasons. Just my opinion. I get it, you want to show that smaller calibers bullets kill and dispel old myths about needing a big gun. That's cool. All the rokslide posts in the world are not going to convince me that 308/7-08/6.5CM are good choices for big elk at 600 yrds, which is why I will continue to not have any experiences to share.

 

[ElDudarino]

I’ve used and killed with all three extensively... and well past 600 yards

The highest hit rates will be with 6.5CM, then 7mm08, then 308. About a 10% difference at 600 in moderate to difficult mountain conditions with a trained wind caller on a 12” target. Highest impact velocity will be nearly tied between the 7mm08 and 6.5 CM, with the 308 a bit below.

As examples, all factory Hornady PH ammo with stated MV in SAC:

308win, 178gr ELD-X, 40% first round

View attachment 240004



7mm08, 150gr ELD-X, 47%
View attachment 240005



6.5CM, 143gr ELD-X, 48% first round hit rate-
View attachment 240006


The comparison and order holds regardless of which bullet and velocity you use from those three cartridges all else being equal.
The 6.5 CM is the most available, least expensive, has the least recoil, the least wind drift, highest hit rate, highest impact speeds, and most likely will agg the smallest.... But people want to “dislike” a brass case and a diameter of a projectile.

Not familiar with AB desktop version there. Is the hit probably figured with a combo of MV variation and an amount of potential error in wind call? How much wind error does this simulation figure.

I ask mainly because I feel (although I don’t have a full dope record to prove it) like my hit probably on a 12” target at 600 with my 16” .308 is much higher than 50% from actual rounds down range. And my 24” 6.5 even more so.


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[CBreeze]

I guess, since you're calling me out, I'll just repeat myself. Highlights added for clarity


I'll take a 300wsm with 165gr barnes over a 6.5CM with 143gr ELDX if given this scenario any day, for a variety of reasons. Just my opinion. I get it, you want to show that smaller calibers bullets kill and dispel old myths about needing a big gun. That's cool. All the rokslide posts in the world are not going to convince me that 308/7-08/6.5CM are good choices for big elk at 600 yrds, which is why I will continue to not have any experiences to share.

You’d shoot a Barnes at 600? It won’t be going fast enough when it hits. I want a real wound, not a pencil channel. This seems pretty common though. Guys want the toughest bullet they can get and then.... they brag about saved meat, lack of blood shot, eat up to the hole, no lead poisoning- and gripe about lack of blood trails long tracking jobs etc, and never bother with the fact that the bullet isn’t doing it’s job, which is to cause havoc on the inside on its way through. Good luck with that.

this is killing- we want maximum trauma. To achieve that end, we must select a projectile that is suitable for all the parameters of our hunt. Your Barnes / 300 WSM combo is great from 0-250, maybe 300. Beyond that you will see unreliable terminal performance.
143ELDX will hold together well enough at creedmoor velocities to shoot an elk at 30 yards and will still open well at 600, leading to the trauma and wound volume that is decisive.

But why is that guys always want to argue the extreme ends of a question?
FIG can take THE creedmoor or 7/08 and wack a deer a 550 this week and an elk at 125 next week and a bear at 200 off the gut pile two days later. It’ll work well on living creatures from 0-600. Which is the point.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

It has been mentioned before and I feel the same way - bullet selection and shot placement is most important thing when it comes to long range hunting. I personally feel that energy over emphasized when we are talking .243 diameter cartridges and above. I have killed cow elk out past 600 yards with my 6mm Creedmoor shooting 108gr eldm - they act like they were hit with the hammer of thor - I guess they didnt get the memo they can only die like that with something that ends in magnum

I think a lot of the benefits to the bigger magnums are mostly psychological. With advancement in bullet technology and rangefinders and optics - I just don’t feel like you need a canon any more. Hence my moving from a 300 rum to a 6.5 PRC for my primary big game rifle. In fact in the last year I sold off a 325 wsm, 300 rum, 7mm wsm 270wsm, two 7mm RMs, and 300 wby All because I have been impressed with how well my 6.5 PRC kills. Not trying to influence anybody else, just providing some background as to why I have narrowed it down to the cartridges I have.

 

[Trogon]

You’d shoot a Barnes at 600? It won’t be going fast enough when it hits. I want a real wound, not a pencil channel. This seems pretty common though. Guys want the toughest bullet they can get and then.... they brag about saved meat, lack of blood shot, eat up to the hole, no lead poisoning- and gripe about lack of blood trails long tracking jobs etc, and never bother with the fact that the bullet isn’t doing it’s job, which is to cause havoc on the inside on its way through. Good luck with that.

With a quick calc I'm getting 2115 fps at 600 with 165 gr barnes at 600. I'll still take that over the 6.5/143eldx combo. But hey, thats why choices exist.

 

[Formidilosus]

I'll take a 300wsm with 165gr barnes over a 6.5CM with 143gr ELDX if given this scenario any day, for a variety of reasons. Just my opinion. I get it, you want to show that smaller calibers bullets kill and dispel old myths about needing a big gun. That's cool. All the rokslide posts in the world are not going to convince me that 308/7-08/6.5CM are good choices for big elk at 600 yrds, which is why I will continue to not have any experiences to share.

The only thing I want is for people to be educated so they hit more. Well, really so they start pressuring manufacturers to design better equipment.

If you’ve never done it, and you have no experience with it, how are you so convinced that you are correct? Your preference of cartridge and bullet should be enough to cause at least some thought one would think.

300WSM, 165gr TSX, 3,100fps MV, with 1,764fps impact velocity at 600 yards in SAC. 34% first round hit in moderate to difficult mountainous conditions (12” target).



6.5CM 143gr ELD-X, 2,868fps MV, with 2,032fps impact velocity at 600 in SAC. 51% first round hit rate in moderate to difficult mountainous condiations-



A 165gr TSX has extremely small upset (caliber size or smaller), if it does so at all below 2,000’ish FPS, creating wounds that are nearly indistinguishable from a field point, and at 1,700fps will get no expansion. In contrast the, 143gr ELD-X at 2,000fps creates 1.5-2” diameter wound channels due permanent tissue damage from the temporary stretch cavity occurring because there is some fragmentation at that velocity, and will still break bones.


So your preference misses 17% more, has 300fps less impact speed, recoils nearly double, and creates tiny wound channels...