700yd practice, calling wind sucks!

[ddowning]

Also, I don't know if it also has to do with an ethic of pulling the trigger and expecting to kill. Sometimes, it seems like there is the feeling among some that if I hit the animal anywhere with my 300WM, it will die. And it doesn't always happen that way.

I think there are some people, no idea how many, that adopt the lead in the air philosophy. In my opinion, you should be surprised when you miss a shot on game. If you are not surprised you missed then you shouldn't have taken the shot.

As far as hitting anywhere, people are extremely ignorant. My kids have a smokeless muzzleloader with a massive brake to hunt whitetails with (we wear electronic muffs to hunt with it). It shoots what is the equivalent of a varmint series 300 grain nosler ballistic tip (if such a thing existed). My kids have shot a ton. More than the average hunter shoots in a lifetime, but they learned from the beginning to build good positions, etc. Sometimes they get in awkward positions on close hunting shots and don't think it will matter because the shot is "close." Even with that massive, highly frangible bullet going 2750 fps, there has only been one bad shot that missed the vitals by couple inches and the shrapnel from the bullet got to the heart/lungs and killed the deer. There have been a few other instances where we have had to find the deer and put a good bullet in it. This is with a gun that hits like a freight train compared to a 300WM. I feel fortunate to have the whitetail hunting opportunity we have to kill multiple deer a year, and I know that creates a lot of experience to draw from. People's ignorance about bullet performance is pretty surprising to me, but I have heard a few people say the same things about it.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Good practicing! I do similar with my own gear, have a couple spots I shoot at, one is in the trees so generally if any wind it's in face or up azz so easy to stay on steel, the other one is prairie so you get to see more of what you saw. I shoot .5 g1 stuff pretty slow 2400-2600 fps and generally always send 3 when out practicing or trueing, and run a 15" circle gong but I also put a larger 4x4' plywood behind it with paper stapled to it so I can check what's going on when off steel at outer ranges, generally shoot only up to 600 give or take 40 or so. Up to say 5 mph I seem to notice it's pretty easy to keep moa 3 shots circular to about 500, then when I move out to 600 the horizontal goes into the 1.5 to 2 moa range but vertical still moa or less. I would expect the higher bc 6.5 cm stuff should make a little easier but other cartridges I've shot over years sort of noticed similar, easy to shoot well to 500 and can handle quite a bit of conditions but once you get beyond that you have to play at a different level. So there's reasons most guys despite how far they shoot or compete at still have those 500-600 on game limits. It's a combo of things, tof, live target, and field conditions/shooting. I don't plan on shooting at anything requiring a tag past 500 with these slower rigs but definitely will send it on coyotes as far as I can.

 

[Pilsner]

Got a source for reasonably priced smoke canisters? Also, I wish I knew this trick about a month ago when the local fireworks tent was having its July 5th sale...
Thanks,
Doc

This is excellent information that I wish more folks would consider.

When we used to teach long range classes we would have a guy down range with a radio set off smoke canisters at the targets.

This would show the shooters not only what the wind was doing at the target compared to the shooting position, but just how much more it moves once it gets further away from the ground.

When shooting a bullet at 700 yards, in steep terrain, consider what the high point of your bullet could be, not only the trajectory arc of needing to dial 10 feet above the target, but what the terrain looks like during flight. Understanding the bullets high point for the shot can make or break a wind call.

The ONLY way to learn this is to go shoot. Take notes. Rinse and repeat.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Got a source for reasonably priced smoke canisters? Also, I wish I knew this trick about a month ago when the local fireworks tent was having its July 5th sale...
Thanks,
Doc

I’ve use the cold burning EG18s recently. Last time I bought them for around $13 a piece.

Smoke production is good, good high vis color, no pop or grenade noise like some others. Run time is meh. Roughly 30 seconds to a minute of high production smoke per unit. Enough time to observe and learn in most cases.

 

[West2East]

Speaking of shooting .22lr. We had a .22 competition held annually by my church this past weekend, steel target shoot with targets from 20 - 100 yds(targets are placed at 20, 40, 60, 80 & 100). Out of about 60 other guys, I placed third, with a shootout at the end for third with 4 others at a final target at 120yds. My final score was 44/50 in the main completion and I went 8/10 on the shootout for third at 120yds. First and second were at 46/50 for the main competition.
Rules are standing offhand only, no rests. Targets are all about 6 - 12inches depending on the "animal" shape. Rifles ranged from Christenson to Bi-mart special Ruger 10/22. Mine is a 10/22 with the cheapest Bushnell 3-9 from Bi-Mart from the early 2000s, I used CCI standard velocity as I always do.
Anyway, thought I'd share.

 

[Navaluk]

I suck it up and practice in the wind with my hunting ammo. I want to learn to call wind with the exact same ammo I will need to call wind with in my hunting situation. Using different bullets and different ammo would cause me issues.

 

[S-3 ranch]

I’m curious to why yall don’t use training aids like surveying stakes with orange markings tape to show what the wind is doing at the different points of view and on target, or use a spotter / observer to call conditions and corrections
I was lucky enough to have a uncle who was a fantastic teacher and fanatical shooter, who made me practice my stalking and practical shooting distance discipline, plus one of my dad’s college friends was on the army and Olympic rifle team, and even he practiced practicality on shooting distance
I don’t usually shoot steel or plastic water bottles past 400-500 yards
Or at least to where my FPS reaches sub 1800
I usually have a lot of questions and what if’s so hopefully I can chime in with a few more

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I’m curious to why yall don’t use training aids like surveying stakes with orange markings tape to show what the wind is doing at the different points of view and on target, or use a spotter / observer to call conditions and corrections

Are those things normally found where you hunt?


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[West2East]

I’m curious to why yall don’t use training aids like surveying stakes with orange markings tape to show what the wind is doing at the different points of view and on target, or use a spotter / observer to call conditions and corrections

Generally, I'm moving too quick and didn't think to take tape the last time.
I also don't have someone I can go with all the time so I rely on videoing the shots. Normally, I can spot impacts over 300yds though.

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[S-3 ranch]

Are those things normally found where you hunt?


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

Yes , some times I laser mark every 100 yards down a road or field I hunt and put survey tape on a limb or drive a stake in the ground ( and study the grass or tree movement in comparison to the streamers)
When I put fingerling fish in the lake and water turkeys are eating them so we have to take them out so they are good practice
They get in the dead trees to dry off it’s 700 yards to the 1st tree and 900 +/- to second tree and I have survey tape to show the difference in wind at different points so I can adjust my POA ( when friends are over we make a game of it and spot for each other)
But I am using a 26 inch 300wm with 180gr or a hot load 264wm with 140 nosler BT , not my hunting rifle on LD practice ( kinda cheating)
I also have a marlin 22lr I shoot pigeons off the barns ( about 150 yards away)

 

[West2East]

Went out again to validate at the 700yds distance using 147s for my upcoming antelope hunt. The 147s definitely group better and give a lot more confidence.
Wind was very tricky today at my position it would feel like 5ish from 1 o'clock at the target it would be 5ish from 3 o'clock. For my first shot I held about 1 min right of the target, I missed by about 4 moa right of the target... wind hold ended up being about 3 min left when it was calm to 4 min with a gust. Which for my gun is about a 8mph full value left to right.
I videoed my shots again so I may upload it later. I did notice my recoil is coming left and back. I can normally spot the shots, but just barely getting the scope back to the target area in time. I worked on my cheek weld and I don't think that's it. I don't feel like the gun is coming straight back.
Any tips?
Shooting off of a bipod and with my hand and rangefinder in its case as a rear bag.

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[Southern Lights]

You've basically run into reality. I have shot a lot of long range. Out to 400 you can be pretty sloppy and still do OK with wind unless it's really howling. From 400-600 wind calls are a significant error. Beyond 600 it's extremely easy to make a bad wind call and make a horrible shot on an animal.

Everyone has a "1/2 MOA" rifle on the bench. In the field almost everyone I've seen is a 2-4MOA shooter. Maybe really dialed in competition shooters are 1.5 MOA in the field, but they practice constantly many thousands of rounds a year.

 

[Southern Lights]

For the record, this weekend I made a 680y cold bore first round hit on 12" plate with my 270 shooting Barnes LRX129 of all things. But I wouldn't shoot at an animal at that distance.

I did however have a shot on a deer at 130y with my thermal and missed it because I took too long screwing around trying to shoot off my pack sitting in total darkness. I pushed aside the pack out of frustration and went to my loop sling, but the deer had heard me and ran into the trees.

The moral of the story here is that when hunting getting a bead on an animal at long range sounds cool, but getting closer and into position quickly to make the shot is often what matters most.

 

[West2East]

For the record, this weekend I made a 680y cold bore first round hit on 12" plate with my 270 shooting Barnes LRX129 of all things. But I wouldn't shoot at an animal at that distance.

I did however have a shot on a deer at 130y with my thermal and missed it because I took too long screwing around trying to shoot off my pack sitting in total darkness. I pushed aside the pack out of frustration and went to my loop sling, but the deer had heard me and ran into the trees.

The moral of the story here is that when hunting getting a bead on an animal at long range sounds cool, but getting closer and into position quickly to make the shot is often what matters most.

I've spent a lot more time this year practicing positional shooting, quickly kind of based on the shoot2hunt 100yd target. I set up my 9x13 plate at like 350 and practice quick prone, kneeling and sitting shots and just the practice alone has helped confidence at that range and what is doable and with what I can do it in.

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[Southern Lights]

The best thing I ever did to improve my shooting wasn't any LR school (I've done a few). Rather, it was the $50 Appleseed course which drilled in how to use a loop sling and how to get NPOA quickly. No other course came close to field practical hunting that I use constantly. The hunt I messed up this weekend would have been a piece of cake if I just used the loop sling sitting and didn't try to get fancy shooting off a pack.

 

[West2East]

Practice pays off when it counts. Was able to make a 1 shot kill on an antelope at 475yds
Wind was 5 mph from about 11:30 so I just held a little left of where I wanted to hit. Entrance was just behind the shoulder.

Then the next day first thing in the morning I went out to take a 735yd cold bore shot. Aim point is the arrow.

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[SonoranPrecision]

Congrats on a successful hunt! It may have been said before and I missed it, but if you don’t have a level on your rifle, that may not be a bad idea either. I was out practicing the other day and ended up needing to hold significantly more wind than my original wind call (like I called 10 mph, and I was holding for 20). My rifle had a level on it that I was neglecting to check, and come to find out, the terrain was playing tricks on my eyes and the rifle was severely out of level. Corrected the level, and the wind hold went back to what it should be. Just a thought

 

[mt terry d]

In my opinion, you should be surprised when you miss a shot on game. If you are not surprised you missed then you shouldn't have taken the shot.

^^^^^^^ this was magnum me before I became a 223 fanboi ^^^^^^^^

When I consider my "max effective killing range" it's mostly dependent on wind conditions
and stability of my position.
No wind and no wobble could more than double that range over gusty weird cross canyon shots
where I'm unstable and getting blown around, too.
Though I've not yet been in a situation to take a (suppressed) sighter shot before a killing shot I see the
value of it if necessary. It might just convince me I shouldn't take the killing shot.

 

[West2East]

Yeah I do have a level on the gun and I have gotten into the habit of checking it in my pre-shot process.

I didn't post videos but after that 735 yd cold bore, I turned 90 degrees and had a 815yd shot on another rock that landed within an minute of POA. I then turned and had a 911 yd shot on another rock. AB was only giving me data to 770yds since I have the free version so I used the Hornady app I wasn't real confident in the values it was giving me but I went with it. It said to dial 29 Min. shot that and was about 2min high, I corrected and made the shot within 2min of POA.

Edit to add: Shooting in flat desert country is definitely easier than canyon country.

 

[Packmansion]

I went shooting Saturday and tried to get some long range shots in to try to work on form and wind calling. I almost didn't go because I knew the wind was going to be tricky but I figured that's the only way to get better. I filmed most/all of my shots(I think I didn't get 1 or 2 on video). I had one target set up at 350yds and one right at 698yds. I've been getting out at least once a week if not twice for practice and am practically on demand from most shooting positions to about 400 kneeling with backpack, seated with front backpack and rear tripod leg . But 450 and out, it's a different story.
First off, a little about my setup. Tikka T3X 6.5cm, Maven RS1 scope (MOA), backpack front rest, bino harness rear rest, Kestrel just to verify and help with wind call, 140 S&B FMJBT practice ammo. I have multiple 10 rd groups at 100 to get my zero and through tracking them, it's holding very steady so I'm very pleased with that. I recognize that the ammo is not the most accurate and that may cause some issues at distance but at 100yds I consistently have 1.5moa 10 rd groups.

I show up at my spot on Saturday and winds are showing 7 to 12 mph from about 2 O'Clock. Strelock said 4MOA on the windage hold for the 12 mph wind and 18.75 up for elevation. The picture of the range card is all of the info I distilled and estimated from my videos. and the video is a compilation of all of the shots. the range card shows 32 shots on a 12in plate(each square is approx. 2 in for the nerds). The vertical and horizontal lines show an estimated 16" square.

One thing I noticed right off within about 5 shots is that my wind call was waaayyyy off. I actually needed about less than 2moa hold to the right and when there was no wind a little less than 1moa to the left. I don't know how to reconcile this other than recognize maybe my inputs were incorrect. Shots from the video are numbered on the card(if you care to watch) and show a little progression of figuring out what to do with the wind. The strong winds (10mph) I actually only needed 2MOA to be "Close" and "Zero" wind I needed to hold off the left edge of the plate (1MOA) to make impacts(I haven't determined if this is spin drift or just user error/form). Also, by tracking these shots I saw that the original dope sheet was off and I needed about 19.25 to be center elevation, could also go to 19.5. Notice none of the shots were high which tells me I'm not centered on elevation.

OBVIOUS takeaway, not shooting at 700 at animals, and learning to call wind accurately to make a first round impact especially when wind isn't exactly full value or consistent, is tough. I already knew that but at some point you think I'd be getting better I also think that my variation group to group is good meaning my form is getting better and repeatable.

Also, I have so many guys in my "hunting community" that talk about 500 -800 yd shots as doable and they would take them. Every time I go out and practice come away shaking my head that my distance is much shorter than a lot of my friends and I'm hoping at some point to get pretty on-demand out to 5-600yds.

Any input or help/ commentary would be awesome. Also, if anyone else has tracked like this and is willing to show a whole cut up video I think it's helpful at least for me to diagnose my own sessions.

One thing I would say is people talk up theor shooting skills maybe your friends are right but I am in the same boat as you. Shooting prone at 600 is right around my limit depending on wind and using my light hunting rifle and 3-15 scope. My heavy prs rig is a different story. 700 to 800 and so on gets increasingly difficult. The wind can be unpredictable and do weird things. Topography can play a role as well, landscape and slow or speed up wind. Using a kestrel is probably about as good as it gets but again that is a measurement at the time where you ar standing. I would recommend getting a much larger gong for calibrating your wind calls. Paint it white. Then switch to the smaller target. If I cant hit an 8 inch consistently from a certain position at a certain range then I wont roll the dice on game. 400 is a very good distance generally where wind has generally less impact and your skills as a shooter dont not have to be top notch. First round hits on a gong at 700 with shifty wind and complex Topography is not as easy as some might claim. When there is no wind and you are shooting prone with a well calibrated ballistic solution that is a little different. Still i think 1.5 to 2 moa target is more reasonable at 700 which might be too generous for a live target. I also typically just do left or right edge when shooting for windon targets.