6mm Creedmoor > 6.5 Grendel??? And... can Ruger American stabilize the Barnes 95 LRX?

[Tahoe1305]

Having a very similar debate for my 7 year old right now.

I have Grendel and 6.5C setups but think I’m just going to allow him to use a short (16”) barreled AR 6.5C that is using 120ish bullets at bottom loads. Should be able to push 120’s about 2750 or so.

The ballistics on that nearly match full power 6C loads out to 500yds or so(BCs are close) ….saves me from having to load a new caliber, build a new gun (although I want an excuse), and AR setups really help with shorter LOPs for kiddos.

 

[Unckebob]

Alright, my wife told me she wants to go whitetail hunting with me, so I naturally want to put together a decent rig for her. Don't want to spend a ton of money and Tikka t3x doesn't come in any of these (yes I can rebarrel, yes it comes in 243 with higher twist rate, but that's neither here nor there).
I have boiled it down to the Ruger American Ranch Gen 2 in 6.5 Grendel and Ruger American Gen 2 in 6mm Creedmoor.
Here are few questions, especially if you own the rifle I am looking at:

1. Recoil, being one of the most important factors, will the Grendel in Ranch configuration really be that much lighter of a recoil than the 6mm in regular ruger American config (especially once I put a recoil pad on it)?
2. I have seen concerns about Ruger American 6mm CM not being able to stabilize the 95gr Barnes LRX, that's what I would like to shoot. Barnes says 1:8, Ruger made the barrel 1:7.7, should be fine, right? I have seen a reported issue. Can anyone share personal experience with that set up and that bullet?
3. Any other recommendations for a light shooting rifle that can put down deer size game out to 200-300 yards? (I have already looked into 6 arc, 300 BLK, 243, 223, 6.8 spc)

Thanks

Get her a Tikka in 243. The number of times a 6CM will provide her a shot that the .243 cannot in her lifetime is likeLy to be zero. 243's having been killing deer for decades. A 6.5CM would be my second choice.

I love the 6ARC. They are very easy to shoot accurately. My daughter took her first deer using a Savage 6ARC with factory 108g Match ammo. The wound was very similar to what my 280AI made with a 150g Eldx. If Tikka makes them, I will buy the first one I can find.

But, I would buy the rifle rather than the cartridge. Tikka's are the best rifles in their price range by a good bit. Any of their offerings in 223, 22-250, 243 or 6.5CM will do the job without beating up your wife.

Note: if you go the 22 route, make sure they are legal where you plan to hunt.

 

[Hoopleheader]

My wife and daughter have around a half dozen antelope and a dozen deer with the Ruger American Predator Gen 1 in 6mm Creedmoor with the 1 in 7.7" twist barrel using the 95gr LRX factory ammo. This barrel is twisted faster (in barrel twist, lower number is faster) than the minimum requirement of 1 in 8" and shoots like lazer beams out of our rifle. I don't like the looks of the Gen 2 rifles but would buy another Gen 1 in a heartbeat.

The Grendel is a great option if you were going to use lead core bullets but since you are limiting yourself to nonlead options, I would not use the Grendel for that option as it starts out so much slower than the 6CM. You realistically need 2000 fps impact velocity for nonlead bullets to perform the best.

The 6ARC is an excellent option but if you're limited to lead free offerings and factory loads, it probably isn't for you. Most of us using the 6ARC are using heavy for caliber fragmenting match type bullets or handloading our own offerings.

My daughter shot this antelope with the 6CM when she was 12. I'm sure your spouse would be fine with the recoil and weight.

Jay

View attachment 814798

Have you had any shots at ~ 300yards with the 95 gr lrx? If so how was expansion best you could tell?

I’ve posted elsewhere that I’m interested in the LRX for my 6 arc mini inside of 200 yards.

 

[The Guide]

Have you had any shots at ~ 300yards with the 95 gr lrx? If so how was expansion best you could tell?

I’ve posted elsewhere that I’m interested in the LRX for my 6 arc mini inside of 200 yards.

All shots were pass through. The wounds were caliber entry and 2x+ exit on bone and 2x exit on soft material. Lungs usually had a 3/4 to 1 inch hole but minimal fragmentation tearing. If I was going to use a lead free offerings in my 6 ARC with distances inside of 200 yards, I would look at the 80 grain offerings to get more speed for better expansion.

Jay

 

[LeftyWilbury]

if i didn't reload i'd just buy a tikka 243 w 1:8 twist and buy any of the dozen(s) of lead-free options and not look back

i do reload....so I bought a 1:8 tikka 243 and reload hammers, because ...well no good reason. just wanted to see if i could fling light copper bullets at fast speeds.

any of the gun/cartridge combos mentioned are going to work and work fairly well. tons of copper/lead-free options up on ammoseek for 243 in 80-95 grain flavors that won't make recoil too bad. and if/when you burn out that barrel, you can get a fancy 6mm flavor-of-the-week.

don't (really) over-think it. you can crunch recoil numbers, ammo availability, BC, drop, etc etc...or just buy a moderate weight rifle that fits your wife, has lightish copper ammo available, and get her shooting. as long as it has minute-of-deer accuracy, light recoil, and unoffensively loads a round when she racks the bolt and goes boom when she pulls the trigger with hopefully a decent trigger pull weight....i'm going to guess/hope it'll work out ok

 

[tony]

Here’s my Ruger G2 ranch in 6 arc
If you’re looking for a kid/wife gun, look at these. You’re in Georgia, I think I read. Sounds familiar to my area in WV 100-150 yard shots.
I plan to take the “brake” off this one.

 

[HandgunHTR]

But now I'm raising the question if the Grendel is moving fast enough for the TTSX to open up... looking at the tables... at 300 yards, velocity is close to 1950 (more than Barnes recomends as a minimum for proper expansion) and energy right under 1000, which I am okay with. Problem is that these numbers are taken from a 24" barrel, not the 16er, Im thinking with the 16" barrel and the bullet requirements, that makes it a 100 yard copper shooter. Eh. Lol.

Here is the thing about the Barnes "opening up". That minimum speed that is recommended is only intended to get you 1.2X diameter expansion, i.e. barely opening up.
In order to get full 2X expansion you will need somewhere around 2200-2300 fps.

As Jay pointed out he is getting about 2X expansion with a 95 grain LRX out of a 6 Creed, which is zipping right along. If you want to use monos in a Grendel based case, you are handicapping yourself unless you are loading (or having someone else load) a mono that is designed for lower velocity performance, such as Cavity Back, Maker, or Hammer.

If you are dead set on Barnes bullets, then in my opinion, the 6 or 6.5 Creed are really your only options.

 

[polishmanmike]

Alright, basically I have been reading everything you guys have been saying, plus some research of my own.
Realistically, I looked at 6 arc, 6 cm, 6.5G, 22 cm, 243. I am going to have to use factory offerings or boutique ammo, like Barnes, copper bullets. Seeing that velocity is a big thing for the copper bullets for proper expansion, I can go ahead and eliminate Ruger American Ranch with 16" barrel in 6arc or 6.5G because it looks like out of 16" barrel, I simply will not hit those velocities out to 300 yards.
If I am gonna go to a 20" barrel, I am looking at the Ruger American Gen 2 in 6mm CM or tikka t3x compact in 243 (1:8 barrel twist). Maybe slap a nice recoil pad on it (limbsaver or Backfire pad) and a brake? That should tame the recoil pretty good? But if I realistically need 2300 fps for 2x expansion on these copper projectiles... does it even exist in the cartridges I mentioned, out to 300 yards, in a 16-20" barrel??????????????

 

[The Guide]

Alright, basically I have been reading everything you guys have been saying, plus some research of my own.
Realistically, I looked at 6 arc, 6 cm, 6.5G, 22 cm, 243. I am going to have to use factory offerings or boutique ammo, like Barnes, copper bullets. Seeing that velocity is a big thing for the copper bullets for proper expansion, I can go ahead and eliminate Ruger American Ranch with 16" barrel in 6arc or 6.5G because it looks like out of 16" barrel, I simply will not hit those velocities out to 300 yards.
If I am gonna go to a 20" barrel, I am looking at the Ruger American Gen 2 in 6mm CM or tikka t3x compact in 243 (1:8 barrel twist). Maybe slap a nice recoil pad on it (limbsaver or Backfire pad) and a brake? That should tame the recoil pretty good? But if I realistically need 2300 fps for 2x expansion on these copper projectiles... does it even exist in the cartridges I mentioned, out to 300 yards, in a 16-20" barrel??????????????

In a 20" barrel, the 6CM will easily get you to 400 with the 95gr LRX and the 243 will get there with the 80 grain TTSX. Barnes has a new line of reduced loads that have a new designed 243 bullet that will open fully to 300 yards in their factory ammo. You will find cheaper practice ammo with the 243 but your rifle choice will need to be threaded. A 20" 6CM should take care of your needs with both the Barnes 95gr LRX or the Hornady 90gr CX with the LRX being the preferred bullet in my opinion.

Jay

 

[polishmanmike]

In a 20" barrel, the 6CM will easily get you to 400 with the 95gr LRX and the 243 will get there with the 80 grain TTSX. Barnes has a new line of reduced loads that have a new designed 243 bullet that will open fully to 300 yards in their factory ammo. You will find cheaper practice ammo with the 243 but your rifle choice will need to be threaded. A 20" 6CM should take care of your needs with both the Barnes 95gr LRX or the Hornady 90gr CX with the LRX being the preferred bullet in my opinion.

Jay

thank you Jay

 

[The Guide]

thank you Jay

No problem. If you were closer I'd let you and your lady fire a few rounds of the 95's out of my 6CM and some of the 80's out of my 20" 243 and see what you think. Even let ya try and 6 ARC and 6.5 Grendel too. It is currently -7⁰ at my house so I'm not sure if you'd want to make the trip...

Jay

 

[Hoopleheader]

Alright, basically I have been reading everything you guys have been saying, plus some research of my own.
Realistically, I looked at 6 arc, 6 cm, 6.5G, 22 cm, 243. I am going to have to use factory offerings or boutique ammo, like Barnes, copper bullets. Seeing that velocity is a big thing for the copper bullets for proper expansion, I can go ahead and eliminate Ruger American Ranch with 16" barrel in 6arc or 6.5G because it looks like out of 16" barrel, I simply will not hit those velocities out to 300 yards.
If I am gonna go to a 20" barrel, I am looking at the Ruger American Gen 2 in 6mm CM or tikka t3x compact in 243 (1:8 barrel twist). Maybe slap a nice recoil pad on it (limbsaver or Backfire pad) and a brake? That should tame the recoil pretty good? But if I realistically need 2300 fps for 2x expansion on these copper projectiles... does it even exist in the cartridges I mentioned, out to 300 yards, in a 16-20" barrel??????????????

I wouldn’t completely write off the 6.5 Grendel using the 115 gr Barnes tac-tx loading. That bullet is designed for the Grendel and its lower staring velocites. Call Barnes and ask them their minimum velocity for that bullet and add a few hundred FPS (the 2200-2400 minimum for good/decent expansion with Barnes is usually in reference to standard TSX/TTSX). Likely gets you to 300. I don’t love the drop/drift ballistics tho.

Their 300 blackout Tac-TX offerings open up just fine at very anemic velocities. “Bullets matter more than headstamps”, to quote the Form (praised be to her glory and wisdom).

Here is an expansion test on the 30 cal tac-tx as a reference:

The other nice thing about sticking to 6.5 Grendel/6 arc is you get to use the compact Howa Mini actions.

 

[HandgunHTR]

Alright, basically I have been reading everything you guys have been saying, plus some research of my own.
Realistically, I looked at 6 arc, 6 cm, 6.5G, 22 cm, 243. I am going to have to use factory offerings or boutique ammo, like Barnes, copper bullets. Seeing that velocity is a big thing for the copper bullets for proper expansion, I can go ahead and eliminate Ruger American Ranch with 16" barrel in 6arc or 6.5G because it looks like out of 16" barrel, I simply will not hit those velocities out to 300 yards.
If I am gonna go to a 20" barrel, I am looking at the Ruger American Gen 2 in 6mm CM or tikka t3x compact in 243 (1:8 barrel twist). Maybe slap a nice recoil pad on it (limbsaver or Backfire pad) and a brake? That should tame the recoil pretty good? But if I realistically need 2300 fps for 2x expansion on these copper projectiles... does it even exist in the cartridges I mentioned, out to 300 yards, in a 16-20" barrel??????????????

Jay already covered your velocity questions so I will address one other thing I read here.

Ditch the brake. Most new and/or inexperienced shooters conflate recoil and muzzle blast. What I mean by that is that they will perceive more recoil than there actually is as muzzle blast increases. So, with a brake, while it does reduce the recoil quite a bit, it also significantly increases the muzzle blast. That can induce a flinch as much or more than actual recoil. The 6CM and 243 have very manageable recoil even without a brake, so I would ditch that idea. Add to that the fact that when hunting, if you forget to put in your ear pro, you are damaging your and your wife's hearing with ever trigger pull at a greater rate than without a brake.
If you can save the extra $$$ a suppressor is your best bet to alleviate all of the things.

 

[Hoopleheader]

Jay already covered your velocity questions so I will address one other thing I read here.

Ditch the brake. Most new and/or inexperienced shooters conflate recoil and muzzle blast. What I mean by that is that they will perceive more recoil than there actually is as muzzle blast increases. So, with a brake, while it does reduce the recoil quite a bit, it also significantly increases the muzzle blast. That can induce a flinch as much or more than actual recoil. The 6CM and 243 have very manageable recoil even without a brake, so I would ditch that idea. Add to that the fact that when hunting, if you forget to put in your ear pro, you are damaging your and your wife's hearing with ever trigger pull at a greater rate than without a brake.
If you can save the extra $$$ a suppressor is your best bet to alleviate all of the things.

This is good advice. I would add that if the intent were to shoot without a suppressor a longer barrel would help cut down on perceived/actual muzzle blast and keep the muzzle a few more inches from your ear.

The latter makes more difference than you would think.

 

[Floridave]

Jay already covered your velocity questions so I will address one other thing I read here.

Ditch the brake. Most new and/or inexperienced shooters conflate recoil and muzzle blast. What I mean by that is that they will perceive more recoil than there actually is as muzzle blast increases. So, with a brake, while it does reduce the recoil quite a bit, it also significantly increases the muzzle blast. That can induce a flinch as much or more than actual recoil. The 6CM and 243 have very manageable recoil even without a brake, so I would ditch that idea. Add to that the fact that when hunting, if you forget to put in your ear pro, you are damaging your and your wife's hearing with ever trigger pull at a greater rate than without a brake.
If you can save the extra $$$ a suppressor is your best bet to alleviate all of the things.

I absolutely agree with this. Running a longer(22-24 inch) barrel with any of these discussed cartridges and no muzzle device is very mild. I think muzzle brakes cause as much trauma as they prevent, simply trading a bump on the shoulder for a deafening muzzle blast.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[polishmanmike]

I am just coming to terms with that 16" short barrel in 6G and 6ARC + Copper ammo = not effective out to 300 yards if I want proper expansion from these Barnes bullets, to put it in simple terms. Which eliminates RA Gen 2 Ranch.

Been looking at this Tikka T3x Compact in 243 (1:8) and Ruger American 6CM, assuming a nice recoil pad.
Thank you all for your input.

For the reloaders: What kind of velocities can I expect out of the Tikka (243, 1:8) and Ruger (6CM) mentioned above, with 20" barrels, at 300 yards?

 

[polishmanmike]

I wouldn’t completely write off the 6.5 Grendel using the 115 gr Barnes tac-tx loading. That bullet is designed for the Grendel and its lower staring velocites. Call Barnes and ask them their minimum velocity for that bullet and add a few hundred FPS (the 2200-2400 minimum for good/decent expansion with Barnes is usually in reference to standard TSX/TTSX). Likely gets you to 300. I don’t love the drop/drift ballistics tho.

Their 300 blackout Tac-TX offerings open up just fine at very anemic velocities. “Bullets matter more than headstamps”, to quote the Form (praised be to her glory and wisdom).

Here is an expansion test on the 30 cal tac-tx as a reference:

The other nice thing about sticking to 6.5 Grendel/6 arc is you get to use the compact Howa Mini actions.

unfortunately, I have read not so great things regarding these in 6.5G

 

[polishmanmike]

No problem. If you were closer I'd let you and your lady fire a few rounds of the 95's out of my 6CM and some of the 80's out of my 20" 243 and see what you think. Even let ya try and 6 ARC and 6.5 Grendel too. It is currently -7⁰ at my house so I'm not sure if you'd want to make the trip...

Jay

haha, that sounds like fun. But yes, 30's here in GA seem like the Antarctic to me...haha.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I am just coming to terms with that 16" short barrel in 6G and 6ARC + Copper ammo = not effective out to 300 yards if I want proper expansion from these Barnes bullets, to put it in simple terms. Which eliminates RA Gen 2 Ranch.

Been looking at this Tikka T3x Compact in 243 (1:8) and Ruger American 6CM, assuming a nice recoil pad.
Thank you all for your input.

For the reloaders: What kind of velocities can I expect out of the Tikka (243, 1:8) and Ruger (6CM) mentioned above, with 20" barrels, at 300 yards?

For the 6CM, you should be getting around 2900 fps out of it with a 20" barrel. Slightly less to equal with the .243 (depending on your barrel, etc.).

So, based on a quick check with the Hornady Ballistic Calculator, you should be in the 2250-2300 fps range at 300. Around 2100 at 400.