65mm spotter.....can anything run with the Swaro ATS HD?

[ZackP]

Guess you have to ask yourself what your really willing to pay, if a $700 spotter is tempting I’d say neither a swaro or Kowa are really serious contenders due to price.

I had a gen 1 vortex razor 65, it was a great entry level spotter for sure but it doesn’t compare to the swaro I had and the 2 Kowa’s I currently have, It gets grainy much past 25x and clarity is vastly reduced at 48x. Many like to talk themselves into the lower price option as good and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think you’ll see that your current Athlon Ares is equal or better then the Vortex.

Now if you truly want a Spotter that will shine in conditions outside of perfect blue bird days you won’t regret the swaro or Kowa, the 77 will be heavier but will be better then the swaro 65, so you have to determine what’s more important weight or better optics and light gathering. Now if you glass mainly with your binos and can deal with using a spotter to verify then the Kowa 55 is a rockstar, crystal clear all the way to 45x and really only fell off in light gathering from my Sawro 80 HD by maybe 5 mins. The great bonus of the Kowa 55 isn’t it’s reduced weight to the 65mm options, its the reduced bulk, it’s much smaller which means less space needed for it, you can also then use a lighter weight tripod setup saving more weight then if you run a 65+.

Just food for thought but the Kowa 55 isn’t for everyone but it’s the one spotter thats always in my pack.

I have the Tines up adapter and it fits pretty much anything, the novagrade i have also has different rings to fit different eyepieces but you have to change them out.

This pretty much sums up my experiences.
I’ve talked myself into lower options many times. While some are better than others (I’m not Vortex hater either), the most important factor to me is clarity.

Clarity under conditions. I hunt wide open desert country for elk and mule deer. I need to be able to accurately judge a deer (as best as I can) at the furthest possible distances, especially in less than perfect conditions. Lesser glass has left me chasing 2 points miles out.

I’m not a horn hunter, but I do want the most mature animal I can harvest. So yes I’m picky. Especially when I’m fortunate enough to have an elk in the freezer.

 

[UpTop]

So, so far the answer is no, there aren’t other 65 class spotters that out do the swaro. Seems everyone keeps pushing for the bigger Kowa 77 which is clearly bigger and heavier, even if not by much depending on who’s answering. I packed an 80 class spotter this year and I won’t do it again, just my opinion/experience.

 

[dapesche]

So, so far the answer is no, there aren’t other 65 class spotters that out do the swaro. Seems everyone keeps pushing for the bigger Kowa 77 which is clearly bigger and heavier, even if not by much depending on who’s answering. I packed an 80 class spotter this year and I won’t do it again, just my opinion/experience.

Sounds like kowa is in the process of a 66mm upgrade. My guess is that once the 77 and 88 eyepiece is put on a 663/664 then the 65ats and atx will see a drop in their sales.

My old 663ed kept up just fine with the 65atx and ats. From my experience the kowa was sharper and had more contrast. Edge to edge brightness was better with the kowa but the swaro had a better fov. The swaro also had vignetting which narrowed the field of view. I also felt it was easier to focus the kowa because the swaro shook a lot when you'd grab the barrel to rotate and focus.

My experience. Swaro was excellent as well but kowa wins on value.

I returned my atx and ate the restocking fees. Purchased a used 773 and I still have $1k cash in my pocket to buy a tent or other shit I don't need.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

 

[tdhanses]

So, so far the answer is no, there aren’t other 65 class spotters that out do the swaro. Seems everyone keeps pushing for the bigger Kowa 77 which is clearly bigger and heavier, even if not by much depending on who’s answering. I packed an 80 class spotter this year and I won’t do it again, just my opinion/experience.

I guess if your only looking at 65mm objectives and set aside all other factors, yeah your right but no one would just say 65mm objective or nothing. Usually people consider that size to save on something, so it would be silly to not look at other products within a range close to these.

 

[UpTop]

I guess if your only looking at 65mm objectives and set aside all other factors, yeah your right but no one would just say 65mm objective or nothing. Usually people consider that size to save on something, so it would be silly to not look at other products within a range close to these.

But clearly that’s what the OP was asking. Says it right in the title.

 

[UpTop]

Sounds like kowa is in the process of a 66mm upgrade. My guess is that once the 77 and 88 eyepiece is put on a 663/664 then the 65ats and atx will see a drop in their sales.

My old 663ed kept up just fine with the 65atx and ats. From my experience the kowa was sharper and had more contrast. Edge to edge brightness was better with the kowa but the swaro had a better fov. The swaro also had vignetting which narrowed the field of view. I also felt it was easier to focus the kowa because the swaro shook a lot when you'd grab the barrel to rotate and focus.

My experience. Swaro was excellent as well but kowa wins on value.

I returned my atx and ate the restocking fees. Purchased a used 773 and I still have $1k cash in my pocket to buy a tent or other shit I don't need.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

I would argue one thing the swaro will always have over any other brand, and it’s hands down resale value. If I myself wanted something bigger than a 65 I’d be jumping up to a bigger spotter than even the 77. Seems the sweet spot for packable size, optical performance at distance and light gathering is a 65 class spotter. The 77 is basically jumping up a whole size class. Defeats the purpose of trying to find that middle ground IMO.

 

[dapesche]

I would argue one thing the swaro will always have over any other brand, and it’s hands down resale value. If I myself wanted something bigger than a 65 I’d be jumping up to a bigger spotter than even the 77. Seems the sweet spot for packable size, optical performance at distance and light gathering is a 65 class spotter. The 77 is basically jumping up a whole size class. Defeats the purpose of trying to find that middle ground IMO.

valid point for sure.

What I get is the eyepiece in my 77. For some reason if I want the new 66 I can grab it and if it overlaps too much I can grab the 88

the 88 and 95 class is getting damn big and more for a guide to pack around to use with a client, in my opinion.

77mm is the biggest I'd want to go and I really wanted the better performance at 60x. too big of a drop off at 60x in the 65mm range for my liking. Even the new 66 will most likely have that same light struggle at 60x.

For me the only option was the 773 or the ats80hd and I'm still saving a bundle of money with the kowa 77 or the swaro 80.


Where you hunt matters as well. I live in BC where you park the truck and walk straight up a mtn. for 1000ft. Going too big would be a pain.

 

[tdhanses]

I would argue one thing the swaro will always have over any other brand, and it’s hands down resale value. If I myself wanted something bigger than a 65 I’d be jumping up to a bigger spotter than even the 77. Seems the sweet spot for packable size, optical performance at distance and light gathering is a 65 class spotter. The 77 is basically jumping up a whole size class. Defeats the purpose of trying to find that middle ground IMO.

But then why not jump down a size class even more and save on weight and bulk plus get a better optic? Only sacrifice is fov and max zoom of 45x.

Also resale on the older tech swaro, ats/sts isn‘t great, I sold my 80HD with 25-50wa eyepiece for $1800, i could sell my Kowa 77 for that and be out less money if i paid full price for both today. My little 55mm is holding strong in resale as well with very little loss in value.

The swaro ATX/STX does also lose value as there are fewer willing to spend that much when they can save cash and pay around $1800-$2000 for great options from multiple companies.

 

[tdhanses]

But clearly that’s what the OP was asking. Says it right in the title.

Yes but pretty sure the OP is more open minded then just 65mm, maybe I’m wrong but I’d think he was wondering if there is a better deal/value then the swaro 65 which yes there are especially when spending that much.

It would just be silly to say 65mm or bust without looking at all options within a price range and then ask is the swaro 65 still the best deal/value in it’s price range, which in the end only the op can determine for his own personal use, maybe it is.

Also if you skip the title and read the OP’s first post you’ll see he’s open to options, being he already has an 82mm spotter and the 55mm Kowa would be perfect addition/complement but maybe he’s picky on fov, which then i’d say what matters more as packability seems to be the main reason for going down in size.

The 55 series has the same lenses as the 88 and now 99 Kowa which is rated above the swaro at/stx by many. The 77 Kowa doesn’t have the same but is still amazing.

 

[UpTop]

Yes but pretty sure the OP is more open minded then just 65mm, maybe I’m wrong but I’d think he was wondering if there is a better deal/value then the swaro 65 which yes there are especially when spending that much.

It would just be silly to say 65mm or bust without looking at all options within a price range and then ask is the swaro 65 still the best deal/value in it’s price range, which in the end only the op can determine for his own personal use, maybe it is.

Also if you skip the title and read the OP’s first post you’ll see he’s open to options, being he already has an 82mm spotter and the 55mm Kowa would be perfect addition/complement but maybe he’s picky on fov, which then i’d say what matters more as packability seems to be the main reason for going down in size.

The 55 series has the same lenses as the 88 and now 99 Kowa which is rated above the swaro at/stx by many. The 77 Kowa doesn’t have the same but is still amazing.

If I already had an 80 class and intended to keep it, I’d without hesitation go with the 55. But if I were wanting to go with only one and get rid of the rest it would be a 60 class spotter given the reasons I stated above. I’m heavily looking at getting the little kowa myself. But I’m leaning towards a 65 and not messing with multiple spotters. Which in a way leans me more toward a modular swaro system where I can have a 65 and another of my choosing and be more versatile if I choose in the future and keep it all one platform

 

[Spiral Horn]

Very few spotters are going to noticeably outperform or even run with the MeoStar S2 the OP is already running. Seems to me he’s asking what’s the closest in performance with a smaller form/weight factor. Any option will be a tradeoff of those 2x primary considerations. A few options in order of size:

Kowa 773 - It is a minor step down in optics from the S2 but lighter and smaller. If I was planning on using the spotter a lot this would be my choice. It does not have the Flourite Crystal of the famous 883/553 - the 883 directly competes with the S2, but the 773 has excelllent optics which are IMO a bit better than ATS 65 (more a direct compeitior of the ATS 80), and will be noticeably brighter in low light. Overall 773 loses more size/weight than view.

ATS 65 - as far as 65mms go it is a great glass. It‘s not the ATX. So, it is a sharp spotter, but not quite ATX sharp. Noticeably sharper than a comparable Vortex or other 65mms, especially at high magnification. IMO I like it a little better than the KOWA 65mm. It will be a bit lighter to carry than the 773 but the step down in optics from the S2 a bit more noticeable, especially in low light.

Kowa 553 - if my style of hunting was highly-mobile, on-foot backpacking covering many miles per day, this is the glass. IMO this thing is an often overlooked gem. Nothing I’ve seen packs this level of performance into this small a package. It’s tiny, but contains Kowa’s High-Flourite-Crystal lens system and offers a simply spectacular view for a 55mm. Although smaller overall & obj, the view and sharpness compete with the ATS - negatives are a smaller FOV and 45x magnification (not certain if one can use the Kowa extender). So, it is not ideal for all-day glassing sessions, but great for packing and verifying something found by scanning with binoculars.

So, if looking to just shave some weight but sacrifice the least optical quality the 773 would be my pick; or, if wanting a super-light rig to stay highly mobile and follow-up glass things picked up in binoculars, I‘d pick up the 553. But the ATS 65 is a very good compromise optic and if set on owning a Swarovski, just buy it and don’t look back.

 

[BBob]

I've owned a lot of optics and have the opportunity to look through a lot. I have kept my STM-65HD 25-50 solely because it's a great compromise scope to have as an option. As in all optics there are pros and cons to all of the scopes listed in this thread. Anyway the STM-65HD 25-50 has a lot going for it and it's my most often used compromise when it comes to size and weight. It ends up in my pack more often than any other spotting scope I own or have owned.

 

[tdhanses]

If I already had an 80 class and intended to keep it, I’d without hesitation go with the 55. But if I were wanting to go with only one and get rid of the rest it would be a 60 class spotter given the reasons I stated above. I’m heavily looking at getting the little kowa myself. But I’m leaning towards a 65 and not messing with multiple spotters. Which in a way leans me more toward a modular swaro system where I can have a 65 and another of my choosing and be more versatile if I choose in the future and keep it all one platform

I believe rokslide sponsor rent optics, i’m butchering the name, has all of these, might be worth renting first and then deciding.

Personally if i had to go to one I’d keep the 55, if i was a sheep goat hunter if keep the 77. Being i hunt deer, elk, antelope and bear the 55 is perfect for my uses.

 

[b_doornenbal]

Without a doubt there is always small improvements companies are making but always at a cost ... this fall I was able sit side by side with a ATS and my older Diascope, both 65mm. The Swaro was a 20-60 and my Diascope is 15-45 and were were glassing sheep in Alberta with slightly snow covered mountains.

After this glassing session I struggled to try and justify why I would want to try find another 1500 bucks to upgrade from my older scope..There wasn't much time I was even able to turn the scope up to 60 power due to mirage.

Possibly some of the wide angle stuff may make a difference but myself being cheap I have been telling people any of the older high quality glass (Leica, Zeiss, Swaro, Kowa, Meopta) would be hard to tell the difference.... 45 power to 45 power with the swaro vs the diascope 3 different people agreed that there was a slight color difference but no difference in clarity.

Just my 2 cents and lots of great info.

 

[BBob]

If considering a Swaro S series I'd highly recommend the 25-50 over the 20-60. It's better optically and a more usable lens overall especially in a 65. In a 65 60x is hardly ever optimal and it was rarely useful. I don't own a 60 anymore even for the bigger scope.

 

[b_doornenbal]

If considering a Swaro S series I'd highly recommend the 25-50 over the 20-60. It's better optically and a more usable lens overall especially in a 65. In a 65 60x is hardly ever optimal and it was rarely useful. I don't own a 60 anymore even for the bigger scope.

Id love to be able to find a 25-50 to compare to my 15-45 to see if the upgrade is there, 45 power on my Diascope is very clear... but there has been a few situations I would like more !

 

[BBob]

Id love to be able to find a 25-50 to compare to my 15-45 to see if the upgrade is there, 45 power on my Diascope is very clear... but there has been a few situations I would like more !

As in most things it's not huge but it's there (comparing 25-50 to 20-60). I bought an 80mm HD S series when they 1st came out and a 65 HD soon after. In the beginning as you probably know the 25-50 wasn't available. When those came out I ordered one to test (my optics guy and friends love me). After using both for quite some time I sold the 20-60's and bought more 25-50's (yes, I own 3 of them ). I hate having to remember to pull an ocular off another scope when grabbing a different scope and have forgotten an ocular altogether by doing just that. The 65 more-so over the 80 showed the difference between the two oculars.

 

[ZackP]

Any route you choose to go, you’re obviously with Alpha glass.

Whether it be Kowa, Meopta, Swaro. They’re all phenomenal, and as stated above there are trade offs with any.

May I ask, why not just keep the S2 and shave weight else where?

I find it funny sometimes people want to shave 6 oz here or 15 oz there, and the first thing that comes to mind is glass and not the 11 lb rifle set up they’re carrying around (I use this as a reference because this is exactly how a few of my acquaintances are).

Maybe the OP is already lighter everywhere else, in that case it’s understandable to squeeze every oz out. But I’ll personally shave it somewhere else, and work a little harder in my off season.

 

[b_doornenbal]

Any route you choose to go, you’re obviously with Alpha glass.

Whether it be Kowa, Meopta, Swaro. They’re all phenomenal, and as stated above there are trade offs with any.

May I ask, why not just keep the S2 and shave weight else where?

I find it funny sometimes people want to shave 6 oz here or 15 oz there, and the first thing that comes to mind is glass and not the 11 lb rifle set up they’re carrying around (I use this as a reference because this is exactly how a few of my acquaintances are).

Maybe the OP is already lighter everywhere else, in that case it’s understandable to squeeze every oz out. But I’ll personally shave it somewhere else, and work a little harder in my off season.

Agree with this completely!! … Spend 1500 to upgrade optics to save 7oz or spend the same 1500 and buy a new shelter and pad and save 14 oz .… and have a brighter 80mm optic

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

I'm the OP. Like to say thanks for the responses, as these really do help make decisions. I am 50yrs old and getting cranky, but it's not pointed at anyone here. Like every YouTube video where a round hits outside the group "That one was me".....bullshit. Call it what it is.....it's a 2" group.

I DONT think optics are that subjective. Maybe the eye relief and eyebox are....or how easy they are to get behind gives you a warmer fuzzy....but crisp and clear are just that.

My Meopta S2 is FUGGIN HUGE.....it takes up a ton of pack space. But as I said....I enjoy the pics and digiscoping a ton. I am constantly fiddling with my NovaGrade and phone.

I am not "married" to only the 65mm. I looked over the Kowa's before pulling the trigger on the Meopta.

When I run the numbers, I am not seeing a ton of disparity across the big scopes. I think my huge Meopta with the eye piece comes in at 3.9 pounds. That 77mm Kowa at 3.65 if I converted grams to pounds accurately. That does not show me enough of a weight savings to dump $2400. The ATX is out. Just too much money.

The Swaro appeals to me for a handful of reasons. It just seems "sleek" and compact. Overall much smaller and trim and would slide into a pack pocket or inside the pack. As I said, the S2 huge.

The little Kowa 55mm spooks me a little. Too small? There are a ton that come up for sale used. They are not staying once purchased.

No, I am not considering a Vortex. Was only agreeing that some of the Japanese original glass was very very good. I have zero issues with Japan optics. Maybe even prefer them.