6.5 Creed small primers

[TradLife406]

I was browsing YouTube and discovered Lapua has small rifle primer brass.
I have about 2000k Federal match small rifle primers. And locally the small rifle primers seem to actually be available.
But how do you do load development? Seems the load data I've seen is just for large rifle primers. Can I start with a lower end charge using the large data and go from there?

Any cons in going to a small primer?
Thanks

 

[sierracharlie338]

Nothing changes as far as load development goes. If you already have an established load with LR primers you may see some changes by switching to a SR primer. Some people will "test primers" with the same load to see what changes it makes to an established load but that is a little too far into the weeds for me and the small amount of time I have to shoot. No cons that I am aware of.

Get the SR brass and start with a known load, work low to high, and I bet you will find an acceptable result.

 

[InkedElkSlayer]

I use Fed205M with Lapua brass. Very similar powder charge and load data that you will see for LRPs.
41.0 gr H4350
2.82 OAL
153gr A-Tip

For comparison, a load that a few friends shoot with Hornady brass and CCI LRPs is…
41.5 gr H4350
2.82 OAL
143gr ELD-X

The only thing I’ve ever read about a “con” was from some AK guys. It centered around a reluctance to use the small primers in incredibly wet, rainy, humid environments. Obviously, I can’t speak to that directly and I personally have never had any firing issues in some pretty wet conditions.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

particularly in cold weather you can have miss or hang-fires with SRP's in creed size brass. there's enough independent reports about it that I personally won't risk it.

 

[wind gypsy]

The con is that they dont light powder as well and can be prone to hang fires in cold weather. Using hotter primers like a cci 450 and single based stick powders does a lot to combat hang fires. Personally i just use LRP when given the option for applications that might be hunted in cold weather.

 

[Duh]

I got a slight reduction in velocity and the groupings opened up a tiny bit with the SRP in Lapua brass. If I remember correctly the velocity loss was around 80 fps compared to a LRP. The load was the same between the two (41 grains of IMR 4350). The primer I’ve used is the fed 205m and that was compared to a Winchester LRP.

I’ve only shot them in North Dakota in the winter without issue. Temp have ranged from 30 degrees down to -10 ish. I’ll add that I’ve only shot around 100 rounds so far and that was last year. So I don’t have a large sample size to go off yet. If winter ever arrives in ND this year, I’ll shoot some more of them.

 

[Gorp2007]

I just ordered 200 pieces of Alpha SRP brass for my 6.5, I’ll report back if I see any major changes. I’ve got 5000 SRP and have an easier time finding it locally, so it’s worth the risk for me when it comes to practice ammo here in Vegas.

 

[RuggedYogi]

The con is that they dont light powder as well and can be prone to hang fires in cold weather. Using hotter primers like a cci 450 and single based stick powders does a lot to combat hang fires. Personally i just use LRP when given the option for applications that might be hunted in cold weather.

Any idea what the consensus is on the definition of “cold” for this issue? I have been using CCI 400s in my 6.5 creed for a couple years now and often shoot when the temp is in the low 20s. Sample size of one, I’m just curious if we’re talking serious cold, like sub-zero.

 

[wind gypsy]

Any idea what the consensus is on the definition of “cold” for this issue? I have been using CCI 400s in my 6.5 creed for a couple years now and often shoot when the temp is in the low 20s. Sample size of one, I’m just curious if we’re talking serious cold, like sub-zero.

I've not seen a clear consensus on where the line is. Just that hang fires are more likely to occur the less spark a primer throws and more likely to occur with a double based ball powder than a double based stick powder and least likely with single base stick powder. If you're using a CCI 400 and say Staball 6.5, you're likely notably closer to having issues than if you were using a 450 and H4350.

My tikka 6 creed was getting hang fires with factory berger 6 creed ammo (which uses SRP) in the 20's.

 

[ID_Matt]

I am about 3,000 rounds in to 6.5 Creed SRP with 450s and H4350, have not had any hang fires. Though the most cold I have shot in was probably 20 degrees for a match. I have had 1 primer that needed hit twice, but that is the only thing I can report negative. I think @Juan_ID can attest the same. I have heard enough talk about hang fires with the 22 creed that I ordered LRP brass for that project, so the issues must be more relevant to powder?

 

[InkedElkSlayer]

What @wind gypsy said makes a lot of sense. Do you have 1 variable, or several variables that are more likely to hang fire?

We’ve only had the 6.5 for a couple seasons, but we’ve shot 2 bulls and a mulie that were between 5 and -5. The rifle and bullets were out in those elements for an extended period of time as well.

It would be interesting to test this. I have the ability to shoot right off my patio. If we finally get some winter here, I may have to leave some ammo out overnight when we’re well below zero, shoot, then report back.

 

[khuber84]

I run srp Cci 450 primers in 65, 25, 6mm and 22cm. All shoot extremely well. I've honestly never used lrp creedmoor brass. A mix of alpha and lapua. Alpha utilizes large flash hole VS lapua using small flash hole. The large flash hole and magnum srp will likely not give you any problems with ignition in colder temps. Below 10 degrees a have experienced a few hang fires using rl26 in my 22cm lapua brass, but not in alpha with the large flash hole. I've only put one season on the alpha, where the lapua was used through 3 winters.

Alpha brass is very hard at the web area, and is intended to be used in min saami spec chambers. Most factory off the shelf rifles, have oversized chambers due to mass production volume. I have a seekins havak pro hunter 2 that's got a big chamber, as well as a Tikka 65cm that's a larger than the chambers cut by my smith. You can measure this with a micrometer on fired brass. Lapua works better in these chambers as it expands more easily, grips the chamber better causing less bolt thrust, preventing bolt lift.

If you stick with standard burn rate powder in cooler temps like H4350 I don't think you'll experience the hang fire problems supposedly associated with srp. One thing to keep in mind, ensure your reloading die has a small decapping pin installed, if not you'll stick the larger one tight in the small lapua flash hole.

 

[Lawnboi]

I am about 3,000 rounds in to 6.5 Creed SRP with 450s and H4350, have not had any hang fires. Though the most cold I have shot in was probably 20 degrees for a match. I have had 1 primer that needed hit twice, but that is the only thing I can report negative. I think @Juan_ID can attest the same. I have heard enough talk about hang fires with the 22 creed that I ordered LRP brass for that project, so the issues must be more relevant to powder?

I think powder density plays a difference too. My hang fires all seem to come with lower case fills. 6.5 creed and h4350 leaves a pretty stuffed case. Iv seen a lot of srp 6.5 creed brass fired and never a hang fire, can’t say the same with the 6 and 22 creed but both those I’m not loading the case full to nearly a crunch when seating.

 

[4090Sharps]

I knew I was going into hang fire territory with my 22CM, so started looking into what causes it. Found this four part video from Johnny's Reloading Bench on YouTube that shows some of the issues he ran into with SRP 6.5CM. Here's a link to the TLDR for the series;

 

[InkedElkSlayer]

It’s been damn cold in MT lately. I tried what I mentioned above. Disclaimer: This is NOT statistically valid and this doesn’t meet the parameters of scientific method.

I set a loaded clip out for 48hrs. Temps got to -28 at the coldest and it was -18 when I got back home and could shoot. No precision test. I just wrapped off 4 shots offhand at an old barrel a couple hundred yards above the house. H4350, Lapua SRP Brass, Fed 205M.

For what it’s worth, all 4 fired and nothing felt weird at all.

I will watch the video above, definitely interested in the topic.

 

[snowcamoman]

I've shot and tested my 6.5CM with the Lapua SRP down to -35°F and haven't had any issues. I'm using H4350. Have run SRP 6PPC for years down below -40°F with H322 powder and it's never failed to shoot as well. It's really cold and dry where I live, so maybe that helps with reliability.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

[HighUintas]

My guess is that the brass with larger flash hole (starline) is more likely to hangfire or misfire due to the larger flash hole not promoting the primer ignition to be accelerated further into the case and a more rapid expansion of the detonation may cause it to decrease in temperature faster than the small flash hole.

Low case fills may exacerbate that issue because the primer ejecta and heat would have further to travel to ignite powder and also a larger volume to expand into, cooling the detonation.

That is my hypothesis.

 

[khuber84]

My guess is that the brass with larger flash hole (starline) is more likely to hangfire or misfire due to the larger flash hole not promoting the primer ignition to be accelerated further into the case and a more rapid expansion of the detonation may cause it to decrease in temperature faster than the small flash hole.

Low case fills may exacerbate that issue because the primer ejecta and heat would have further to travel to ignite powder and also a larger volume to expand into, cooling the detonation.

That is my hypothesis.

Alpha did a lot of testing on this subject, and they determined large flash hole optimal with small primers and large. Hence why all their cases have a large flash hole regardless of primer pocket. That was their findings anyway. I've ran a lot of their brass in cold weather, single digits and some negatives, and haven't had a problem.

 

[DW1996]

Alpha did a lot of testing on this subject, and they determined large flash hole optimal with small primers and large. Hence why all their cases have a large flash hole regardless of primer pocket. That was their findings anyway. I've ran a lot of their brass in cold weather, single digits and some negatives, and haven't had a problem.

Definitely interesting. Never noticed this on my alpha brass.

 

[HighUintas]

Alpha did a lot of testing on this subject, and they determined large flash hole optimal with small primers and large. Hence why all their cases have a large flash hole regardless of primer pocket. That was their findings anyway. I've ran a lot of their brass in cold weather, single digits and some negatives, and haven't had a problem.

I wish they would publish their results. I'd like to see how in depth it was. I find it very interesting.

There's a thread over on accurate shooter where a couple guys tested various flash hole sizes and said that 0.060 was good, 0.070 was bad, and 0.080 was good. Give me a break. If the results were really different and not just noise, I'm sure it's just that particular load.

I can't see it making a ton of difference except for the extreme scenarios: very thick case head (long flash channel), very low case fill, extremely cold temp, etc.