50 yd. zero pros and cons?

[jimh406]

50 yd zero seems to be solution looking for a problem. At any case, unless you shoot the other distances, there is no way to know how good your zero is or if the trajectory is really what you think.

But, if 50 yd zero is good wouldn’t 25 yd zero be even better.

 

[fwafwow]

Several cons. Everyone get so focused on the vertical axis and “drop”. They ignore the cons of “closer” range zeroing of rifles which is a single point to single point localization. This isn’t how true alignment works.

Do some studying up on projectile motion formulas. You can pull your data in based on some easily obtainable numbers. The formula for projectile motion, specifically for maximum horizontal range is Rm=U²/g.

This is interesting and makes sense. Is there an ideal sighting in distance that can be determined by a formula? I don’t sight in at 50, but apart from MPBR calculations, all of these (50, 100, 200 yards) seem arbitrary.

 

[A.hol1]

Zero is different than accuracy so to speak. I have all my rifles at 50 overall but practice being accurate at all distances. I know I can shoot just about anything with any of my hunting rifles from point plank to 200 yards without thinking.


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[fmyth]

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Correct, except that rifle barrels are slightly angled upwards. So the bullet leaves the barrel at an upward angle until it reaches its apex, just like the diagram I included in my previous post. If you were to compensate for the upward angle of the barrel (relative to the kevel action), then yes, the bullet would be dropping from the point of leaving the barrel.

"rifle barrels are slightly angled upwards"? I suppose that depends on how you are holding the rifle.

 

[Bubblehide]

"rifle barrels are slightly angled upwards"? I suppose that depends on how you are holding the rifle.

If you level the action, you should be able to see it easily.

 

[Pony Soldier]

I have an old pub from the 60s. 7rm, 175 gr bullet, ~ 2750fps - 1.5 " high at 50yds, about on the money at 200 yds. I check at 100 yds.

I killed a trotting coyote at 350 yds last year with a 1 ft hold over and an 18" lead. It's worked for nearly 60 years.

 

[AkMtnRunner]

I like to do load development and rough zero at 50 to reduce variables. One thing that Ryan didn’t touch much on in that limited 10 minute talk was verifying trajectory out to possible hunting distances, which everyone should do regardless of the zeroing distance.

Either can work well and the only thing that really bothers me about the 100 yard zero is that it might be close to the apex of the trajectory and therefore it’s uncertain whether the zero is the near or far zero incidence, which would make for catastrophic errors. But again, confirming trajectory at multiple distances would resolve this.

 

[KenLee]

50 yd zero seems to be solution looking for a problem. At any case, unless you shoot the other distances, there is no way to know how good your zero is or if the trajectory is really what you think.

But, if 50 yd zero is good wouldn’t 25 yd zero be even better.

You joke, but with most popular hunting calibers, a 25 yard zero = point and shoot out to 275 yards. I'm talking from 3 inches high to 3 inches low. Yes, a hunter should verify farther out, but it works 90% of the time. I'm not including 30-30, 350 legend, 45-70 etc.
I'm talking 243, 270, 6.5 creed, 30-06, 7 mag, 300wm and similar speeds.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

If you level the action, you should be able to see it easily.

You honestly don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. No barrel is perfectly straight end to end when you’re talking thousands or ten thousandths of inches in the machining world but they get threaded up how they happen to sit, gunsmiths don’t even find the true curve of the bore and trying to point it in any direction and a CNC that manufactures are using surely isn’t so there’s no way to say which way the bore indexes. If you’re saying that they intentionally point them up then you’re wrong about that too.

 

[VinoVino]

Bullet Trajectory

TL;DR -
“Generally, for what we consider a "horizontal" shot, the sight alignment places the barrel in a slightly upward tilt, and the bullet starts its arc, rises slightly above the level of the muzzle, but never above the axis of the barrel, reaches a peak, then descends.”

And you could possibly sight your rifle in below 50 yards, based on the ballistics charts, but any error in determining your zero crossing is going to get multiplied down range. For me, personally, I prefer zeroing at 200.

 

[Pony Soldier]

Now you made me have dig up details. Here is what I have used as a lead for a number of years by Jim Carmichal. I adjust it and verify but out to 300 yds it has worked very well for a lot of years.

For copper and differant bullets - you are out of luck.

 

[Bubblehide]

You honestly don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. No barrel is perfectly straight end to end when you’re talking thousands or ten thousandths of inches in the machining world but they get threaded up how they happen to sit, gunsmiths don’t even find the true curve of the bore and trying to point it in any direction and a CNC that manufactures are using surely isn’t so there’s no way to say which way the bore indexes. If you’re saying that they intentionally point them up then you’re wrong about that too.

Insults are not the way to on this forum, in case you didn't know. But with only 57 posts, I suspect you might not be aware of that.

Of course I know what I am talking about, but you are free to disagree with me and others that have stated the same.

 

[Formidilosus]

Either can work well and the only thing that really bothers me about the 100 yard zero is that it might be close to the apex of the trajectory and therefore it’s uncertain whether the zero is the near or far zero incidence, which would make for catastrophic errors.

For any journal CF with MV above 2,200’ish fps, a 100 yard zero is the “far zero”. The center of the cone never rises above the line of sight.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

This is interesting and makes sense. Is there an ideal sighting in distance that can be determined by a formula? I don’t sight in at 50, but apart from MPBR calculations, all of these (50, 100, 200 yards) seem arbitrary.

You are sighting in to a single “yardage” where the projectile trajectory crosses the path of the target at a determined range. The same forces of nature that are being applied in the y axis also apply to the x axis and effect “windage”.

These forces get exaggerated with distance, temperature, and especially wind (rifle world we think of “windage”’and x axis but wind greatly affects y axis as well). The further distance you travel from a target sight in point, the more exaggerated human error becomes as well.

What does all this mean? You need to do what I call a “cost benefit analysis” for your sight in distance. Getting far enough away for a more accurate representation of the trajectory without going so far you just introduce more errors. What distance are most of your killing shots? How proficient of a shooter are you at certain yardages? What’s the weather like on your site in day?

100 yards tends to land in a bit of a sweet spot for eliminating outside effects on the trajectory. It’s also a repeatable distance for a lot of shooters with modern rifles and scopes. It also makes the math fairly easy for “hold overs” and dialing with several cartridges.

For me personally, I’ve sighted my rifles in at 200 yards for about 20 years now. 200 yards allows me to more accurately correct in the x axis of the trajectory, especially since most of my killing shots are in the 200-400 yard range (10’s of thousands of squirrels, rabbits, coyotes, and hundreds of big game animals). I am proficient and repeatable at 200 yards, but I have to wait for days with basically zero wind.

I’ve never seen a scope and rifle combination that didn’t need slight corrections in the x axis and of course y axis, after a 100 yard “sight in” when moving out to 200 yards and rechecking. Same with 50 yards and moving out to 100, and on and on and on…. It’s how single point to single point alignment and trajectories just work in nature.

 

[49ereric]

Mn woods we zero at 25 yards.
Have not target shot a 100 yards in years.

 

[Desk Jockey]

I still use a 2” high at 100 zero. That puts me within 4” of zero out to ~300 yards with all my hunting guns (except 22lr or 30-30). I also use dope to dial for more precision. However, that zero means I can take almost any shot I find back East without dialing and still be in the boiler room.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Insults are not the way to on this forum, in case you didn't know. But with only 57 posts, I suspect you might not be aware of that.

Of course I know what I am talking about, but you are free to disagree with me and others that have stated the same.

Calling someone out that’s spreading misinformation isn’t an insult unless you’re somehow offended by being wrong, which you absolutely are. Call any competent precision rifle builder and tell them that and see what response you get.

 

[*zap*]

retired delta officer told me to sight for 50 and then put the dot center of mass out to 225 those guys kill for a living, we were talking m4. My 6.5 is zeroed at 50 and it will be well inside in the kill zone out to 225...ymmv

I am not talking about shooting longer distances with those firearms.

 

[RCB]

I feel that any added precision you gain when zeroing your rifle at 50 yards (relative to 100, say) is exactly canceled out by the increased magnification of that error when dialing to longer ranges. So I don't think it really matters at all. Seems like a nonissue.
That being said, Personally I like to zero my rifle at 100 yards because (1) there's an indoor range nearby that goes to 100, so it's convenient and (2) it's closer to the ranges at which I'm likely to shoot game anyway. Whatever.
As a separate issue, I've learned not to trust ballistics charts. Go zero your rifle at whatever distance you want, and then shoot at a variety of ranges and see what actually happens. Then write down the adjustments and memorize them. I did this with my rifle and the adjustments were not what the cartridge's charts were saying.

 

[Bubblehide]

Calling someone out that’s spreading misinformation isn’t an insult unless you’re somehow offended by being wrong, which you absolutely are. Call any competent precision rifle builder and tell them that and see what response you get.

Let me be clear, name calling and insults are against the forum rules. Just because you have a different opinion, it does not make me wrong. You are entitled to have any opinion you like, but you are not entitled to try to force it on others. I will simply agree to disagree, and move on.